A common claim in HP fandom is that Harry doesn’t appreciate Hermione enough. A weirder assertion I sometimes see is that Ron compliments or appreciates Hermione more than Harry.
Admittedly, Hermione does a lot for Harry throughout the books, and he doesn’t always express his thoughts directly to her. Nevertheless, there are many passages where Harry directly compliments Hermione (often using words of very high praise), as well as quite a few where he expresses his admiration of her to other people.
This essay will explore those complimentary passages from the books. I won’t include simple expressions of gratitude (though those exist too between Harry and Hermione), nor will I recount here the many passages where Harry merely thinks highly of Hermione or appreciates her without saying anything aloud. Frankly, that would make this essay much too long, and I want to focus on real compliments and praise.
After we’ve explored how Harry compliments Hermione along with her reactions, we’ll take a look at how Ron tends to praise Hermione, as well as the different way she reacts to both boys. Not surprisingly to most readers here, we’ll see that Harry is the boy Hermione truly loves praise from. Unfortunately in Ron’s case, his compliments almost never land well (if they land at all).
I’m going to keep the commentary shorter here on many passages, as this is primarily intended to be a list to demonstrate just how much Harry appreciates Hermione and thinks highly of her. Nevertheless, we’ll see a number of patterns emerge as we go through.

Harry’s direct compliments

Let’s begin with one of the most well-known interactions in the early books between Harry and Hermione (PS16):

Hermione’s lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him.
‘Hermione!’
‘Harry – you’re a great wizard, you know.’
‘I’m not as good as you,’ said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him.
‘Me!’ said Hermione. ‘Books! And cleverness! There are more important things – friendship and bravery and – oh Harry – be careful!’

There’s not much new to say about this passage—Harry is about to go on alone, putting himself in great danger. Hermione’s lip trembles in emotion, and she embraces Harry for the first time in the books, praising him as a “great wizard.” And yet, Harry claims he’s simply not as good as Hermione.
Still, the two of them go back and forth about it in a cute way, as Hermione then says “Me!” and proceeds to implicitly compliment Harry’s friendship and bravery further.
I mention this latter detail of the back-and-forth because it gets mirrored four years later, except this time with Harry being the one to say, “Me?” See OotP15:

‘Harry, you’re the best in the year at Defence Against the Dark Arts,’ said Hermione.
‘Me?’ said Harry, now grinning more broadly than ever. ‘No I’m not, you’ve beaten me in every test –’
‘Actually, I haven’t,’ said Hermione coolly. ‘You beat me in our third year – the only year we both sat the test and had a teacher who actually knew the subject. But I’m not talking about test results, Harry. Think what you’ve done!’

We know of Harry’s prowess at DADA. Can anyone forget the insanely powerful Patronus Harry conjured at the end of PoA, which Hermione noted was “very, very advanced magic”? It’s again cute that they get into a disagreement, both modestly trying to one-up the praise of the other here while claiming they themselves aren’t the best.
But I already skipped over another moment a few chapters earlier in OotP9:

[Ron] dashed from the room, leaving Harry and Hermione alone.
For some reason, Harry found he did not want to look at Hermione. He turned to his bed, picked up the pile of clean robes Mrs Weasley had laid on it and crossed the room to his trunk.
‘Harry?’ said Hermione tentatively.
‘Well done, Hermione,’ said Harry, so heartily it did not sound like his voice at all, and, still not looking at her, ‘brilliant. Prefect. Great.’
‘Thanks,’ said Hermione. ‘Erm – Harry – could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They’ll be really pleased – I mean prefect is something they can understand.’

The circumstances are complicated here, because Harry’s feeling really conflicted about not getting a prefect’s badge. He doesn’t want to look at Hermione, because I think he feels like she’d be disappointed in him, as she was so enthusiastic about the idea of being prefect with him a few minutes before. I analyzed this whole section in greater depth in another essay, so I won’t get into all of that here.
For the present, let’s just note that Harry is feeling very emotional and is about to launch himself into one of the longest internal monologues in the books, feeling quite down about himself. Yet he still finds the strength to tell Hermione how “brilliant” he thinks she is. Even if he’s hurting and can’t even look at her, he wants her to know he’s proud of her.
This isn’t the only place where Harry spontaneously feels the need to give Hermione compliments even under less-than-ideal circumstances. He seems to place great importance in ensuring that Hermione knows how highly he thinks of her. We particularly see this later in the series. In HBP25, Hermione basically accuses Harry of being mildly sexist because he refuses to take her theory seriously that the “Prince” (the former owner of the potions book) might have been a woman:

‘Listen, Hermione, I can tell it’s not a girl. I can just tell.’
‘The truth is that you don’t think a girl would have been clever enough,’ said Hermione angrily.
‘How can I have hung round with you for five years and not think girls are clever?’ said Harry, stung by this.

Harry’s “stung” that Hermione would think of him as sexist, but he’s specifically disappointed because he knows how brilliant and clever Hermione is. He thinks she’s amazing and incredible and the best in his year at school. I wonder if this passage leads Harry to reflect a bit on how he may not always voice his opinion to Hermione enough, as there’s a marked change in DH, where Harry more frequently tells Hermione directly how highly he thinks of her.
For example, in DH9, in the scene after the trio was attacked by Dolohov and Rowle, Harry calls her “brilliant” for casting a memory charm:

She took a deep, calming breath, then pointed her wand at Dolohov’s forehead and said, ‘Obliviate.’
At once, Dolohov’s eyes became unfocused and dreamy.
‘Brilliant!’ said Harry, clapping her on the back. ‘Take care of the other one and the waitress while Ron and I clear up.’

Later, after Harry and Hermione escape Nagini’s attack at Bathilda Bagshot’s house, Harry calls her “incredible” (DH18):

‘You’re still really angry at me, aren’t you?’ said Hermione; he looked up to see fresh tears leaking out of her eyes, and knew that his anger must have shown in his face.
‘No,’ he said quietly. ‘No, Hermione, I know it was an accident. You were trying to get us out of there alive, and you were incredible. I’d be dead if you hadn’t been there to help me.’
He tried to return her watery smile, then turned his attention to the book.

As in the OotP passage where Harry is feeling depressed about the prefect’s badge, here Harry isn’t really ready to talk. His wand is broken, he was injured by Nagini, and he spent the night having visions of Voldemort killing his parents. It’s not at all an exaggeration to say this is probably the most dire part of Harry’s journey in the books. And yet he still values Hermione enough not only to agree to talk when he’s not ready, but also to immediately forgive her and call her “incredible” for her quick thinking the previous night.
Moreover, we can see how much this means to Hermione at that moment, as she smiles in gratitude at Harry, in contrast to her tear-streaked face.
Later in DH, after Hermione was tortured at Malfoy Manor, we again see Harry expressing his understanding and gratitude for Hermione when he first talks to her (DH24):

Harry had walked up several steps before stopping and looking back.
‘I need you two, as well!’ he called to Ron and Hermione, who had been skulking, half-concealed, in the doorway of the sitting room.
They both moved into the light, looking oddly relieved.
‘How are you?’ Harry asked Hermione. ‘You were amazing – coming up with that story when she was hurting you like that –’
Hermione gave a weak smile as Ron gave her a one-armed squeeze.

Harry calls her “amazing,” and once again Hermione smiles in reply. I should also pause here to note that these superlatives aren’t common for Harry. In fact, they’re unique to Hermione. Harry doesn’t call anyone else “amazing” or “incredible” anywhere in the books.
And these are far from the only times Hermione’s quick thinking saves the day. A few months earlier, she once again apparated Harry (and Ron too) away in mid-air to escape Luna’s father’s house, coming up with a detailed plan in a matter of seconds to hide Ron while exposing Harry during the escape (for strategic reasons). Harry then agrees Hermione is a genius and tells her doesn’t know what they’d do without her (DH22):

‘You’re a genius,’ Ron repeated, looking awed.
‘Yeah, you are, Hermione,’ agreed Harry fervently, ‘I don’t know what we’d do without you.’
She beamed, but became solemn at once.

I’d note another detail here. Ron does compliment Hermione too in this passage, calling her a “genius” multiple times. Yet it’s only once Harry finally tells her how much she means to him that Hermione “beams” in reply. (In a previous essay, I examined how frequently Hermione “beams” at Harry, much more than anyone else.)
This is a pattern we see repeatedly in the books, where Ron’s praise is ignored in favor of Harry’s. Perhaps the clearest example is in HBP9:

[Slughorn:] ‘Oho! “One of my best friends is Muggle-born and she’s the best in our year!” I’m assuming this is the very friend of whom you spoke, Harry?’
‘Yes, sir,’ said Harry.
‘Well, well, take twenty well-earned points for Gryffindor, Miss Granger,’ said Slughorn genially.
Malfoy looked rather as he had done the time Hermione had punched him in the face. Hermione turned to Harry with a radiant expression and whispered, ‘Did you really tell him I’m the best in the year? Oh, Harry!’
‘Well, what’s so impressive about that?’ whispered Ron, who for some reason looked annoyed. ‘You are the best in the year – I’d’ve told him so if he’d asked me!’
Hermione smiled but made a ‘shush’ing gesture, so that they could hear what Slughorn was saying. Ron looked slightly disgruntled.

Harry had already praised Hermione to Slughorn privately (a fact we’ll come back to), but hearing this praise from Harry causes Hermione to turn toward Harry with a “radiant expression,” overwhelmed with joy at the idea that Harry thought of her as the “best in the year.” (The word choice of “radiant” here is rather special for JKR, as I’ve noted in a previous essay.)
Meanwhile, poor Ron is off to the side, looking “slightly disgruntled” when Hermione shushes him in class for a similar remark.

Ron’s compliments to Hermione

Unfortunately for Ron, Hermione’s reaction in the Slughorn scene is typical. We’ve seen Hermione repeatedly smiling and looking radiant at Harry’s compliments, as well as reacting by praising him in return. Ron, on the other hand, is almost exclusively met with tepid if not outright negative reactions from Hermione even when he says nice things about her.
I drew on a list of Ron compliments created by Ron/Hermione shippers here, but the original list only gave Ron’s lines, without Hermione’s reactions, which I’ve restored below. (The reason for the omission of Hermione’s responses will soon become clear.)
Ron first shows genuine admiration for Hermione back in PoA15 when she slaps Draco and then storms out of Divination. However, the first time Ron actually tries to express this appreciation verbally probably happens in OotP12:

[Hermione:] ‘About You-Know-Who. He said his “gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust –”’
‘How do you remember stuff like that?’ asked Ron, looking at her in admiration.
‘I listen, Ron,’ said Hermione, with a touch of asperity.
‘So do I, but I still couldn’t tell you exactly what –’
‘The point,’ Hermione pressed on loudly, ‘is that this sort of thing is exactly what Dumbledore was talking about. You-Know-Who’s only been back two months and we’ve already started fighting among ourselves. And the Sorting Hat’s warning was the same: stand together, be united –’

Although this isn’t a direct compliment, we’re told that Ron is actually looking at Hermione “in admiration.” Unlike his more typical annoyance with her, he’s actually impressed here by her memory. And yet Hermione responds with “asperity,” harshly putting him down for not listening better. When Ron gets defensive and tries to react, Hermione “loudly” talks over him and essentially ignores Ron completely.
This is far from the only time Hermione will ignore Ron’s occasional kind words, because she clearly knows it’s unusual behavior. She tells us this directly (OotP14):

‘OK, write that down,’ Hermione said to Ron, pushing his essay and a sheet covered in her own writing back to Ron, ‘then add this conclusion I’ve written for you.’
‘Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I’ve ever met,’ said Ron weakly, ‘and if I’m ever rude to you again –’
‘– I’ll know you’re back to normal,’ said Hermione.

Ron was trying to thank her for help with his homework, but Hermione recognizes this praise as obviously transactional. She has noticed he’s only nice to her when she does things for him, but otherwise his “normal” behavior toward her is a bit rude. (As a sidenote: we’ve already seen Harry repeatedly refer to Hermione as “brilliant.” Ron, in contrast, does call Hermione sort of “brilliant” twice, both times sarcastically referring to theories or ideas he thinks are ridiculous. See CoS13, DH25.)
Ron’s attempts at recognizing Hermione’s achievements also look very different from Harry’s. In HBP5, when Hermione is worrying about her O.W.L. exam performance, Ron does acknowledge Hermione’s academic performance a couple times, in passages that Ron/Hermione fans will point to as evidence of his supposed admiration.
Yet they don’t come off as compliments. They are aggressive and exasperated and almost making fun of Hermione at the end. And look how Hermione reacts:

‘Hermione, will you shut up, you’re not the only one who’s nervous!’ barked Ron. ‘And when you’ve got your ten “Outstanding” O.W.L.s ...’
‘**Don’t, don’t, don’t!’ said Hermione, flapping her hands hysterically. ‘**I know I’ve failed everything!’
[…]
‘I – not bad,’ said Hermione in a small voice.
‘Oh, come off it,’ said Ron, striding over to her and whipping her results out of her hand. ‘Yep – nine “Outstandings” and one “Exceeds Expectations” in Defence Against the Dark Arts.’ He looked down at her, half-amused, half-exasperated. ‘You’re actually disappointed, aren’t you?’
Hermione shook her head, but Harry laughed.

So yes, Ron acknowledges her achievements here, but he does so in the process of telling her to “shut up,” barking at her, and then becoming “exasperated” at her personal goals. I think we can all take a step back and acknowledge that Hermione is a fairly extreme perfectionist, and her level of anxiety at potentially “failing everything” comes across as weird and a bit irrational. Still, rather than helping her “calm down” (as many Ron/Hermione fans would say Ron does), Ron exacerbates Hermione’s level of disquiet, causing her to become “hysterical” and then later embarrassed, reacting in a “small voice.”
Harry would have just clapped her on the back and called her “brilliant” or something, to which she’d probably smile in reply. Harry doesn’t share Hermione’s level of academic dedication, but he still appreciates it, rather than trying to shame Hermione for being an overachiever. Yet Ron manages to make her uncomfortable in several different ways in this scene, even as he recognizes how well she would do.
And we’ve only started on the types of negative reactions Hermione has to Ron’s attempts at recognizing her achievements. In HBP21 after apparition practice in Hogsmeade, Ron cuts in to call her performance “perfect”:

‘Good one,’ said Harry. ‘How’d you do, Hermione?’
‘Oh, she was perfect, obviously,’ said Ron, before Hermione could answer. ‘Perfect deliberation, divination and desperation, or whatever the hell it is – we all went for a quick drink in the Three Broomsticks after and you should’ve heard Twycross going on about her – I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t pop the question soon –’
‘And what about you?’ asked Hermione, ignoring Ron.

Ron’s praise is undermined with the dismissive “whatever the hell it is,” once again making it clear that he doesn’t value Hermione’s attention to detail and high standards. Hermione’s response is, reasonably, then to simply ignore Ron.
Admittedly, Ron appears to realize some of his failings and makes an attempt in Deathly Hallows, reading the Twelve Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches book and trying to learn how to compliment a girl. It unfortunately doesn’t go quite smoothly for Ron at first (DH7):

Hermione made purple and gold streamers erupt from the end of her wand and drape themselves artistically over the trees and bushes.
‘Nice,’ said Ron, as with one final flourish of her wand, Hermione turned the leaves on the crab-apple tree to gold. ‘You’ve really got an eye for that sort of thing.’
‘Thank you, Ron!’ said Hermione, looking both pleased and a little confused. Harry turned away, smiling to himself. He had a funny notion that he would find a chapter on compliments when he found time to peruse his copy of Twelve Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches […].

Ron arguably is trying here, but as we know from OotP, Hermione knows Ron’s more typical reaction toward her isn't as positive. Hence we see her a “little confused” yet still somewhat pleased.
This kind of dual reaction from Hermione is usually the best Ron can hope for. Unlike Hermione’s instant smiles and happiness from Harry’s compliments, she views Ron with suspicion. Hermione always appears to keep in mind that Ron’s pleasant reactions are atypical and thus not to be trusted. We see this again as Hermione enters before Bill and Fleur’s wedding, wearing a lovely dress (DH8):

‘[…] wow,’ [Ron] added, blinking rather rapidly as Hermione came hurrying towards them. ‘You look great!’
‘Always the tone of surprise,’ said Hermione, though she smiled.

Note the “though she smiled” qualification here, which is pointing out that Hermione’s reaction is not exactly positive and possible unkind. Hermione is here making a reference to an earlier conversation after the Seven Potters. When Tonks mentioned how “great” Ron was stunning a Death Eater, Hermione reacted positively with “you did?” Hermione was sincerely proud of Ron at that moment, hugging him, and yet Ron reacted with the phrase “Always the tone of surprise,” rejecting her and breaking off from her embrace.
Admittedly, Ron was a bit right in that scene to acknowledge that Hermione almost never recognizes his achievements. Yet in the wedding scene, we see Hermione throw that verbal dig back at Ron, effectively taking what appears to be a more sincere compliment from Ron and undermining it. She’s telling him (and the reader) that he doesn’t generally find her attractive and wouldn’t typically say such a nice thing to her.
In effect, she’s somewhat begrudgingly smiling while taking a swipe at Ron’s more typical behavior.
[[EDIT: After more discussion in comments, I want to acknowledge there's another way of viewing this line at the wedding, where Hermione's potentially being more playful. I didn't actually include that potential interpretation here because I feel like it comes across as Hermione not taking Ron's earlier line seriously, in effect making her be insensitive to Ron's insecurities by cracking a joke based on a place where he's legitimately feeling underappreciated. Still, it's a possible alternate interpretation here, and you can see more discussion of it in comments below linked here.]]
There’s really only one time in the books that I have found where Hermione actually reacts positively (without qualification) to Ron’s praise. That occurs in DH9 after she reveals how she had packed so much in her beaded bag in preparation for the Horcrux hunt and emergencies:

‘I told you at The Burrow, I’ve had the essentials packed for days, you know, in case we needed to make a quick getaway. I packed your rucksack this morning, Harry, after you changed, and put it in here ... I just had a feeling …’
‘You’re amazing, you are,’ said Ron, handing her his bundled-up robes.
‘Thank you,’ said Hermione, managing a small smile as she pushed the robes into the bag. ‘Please, Harry, get that Cloak on!’

We see her here at least giving Ron a “small smile,” though she quickly turns to Harry, more concerned again about him. Still, it’s a legitimate positive reaction to a compliment from Ron. We shouldn’t have to pause and reflect on that so much, except for the fact that this is a rather unique occurrence. Every other time Ron says something nice about Hermione, she basically ignores it, gets annoyed, dismisses it, gets suspicious or confused, or has some other negative reaction like we saw.
And even this one pleasant moment between Ron and Hermione is immediately undermined a few pages later:

Ron struggled for a moment before managing to extract his wand from his pocket.
‘It’s no wonder I can’t get it out, Hermione, you packed my old jeans, they’re tight.’
‘Oh, I’m so sorry,’ hissed Hermione, and as she dragged the waitress out of sight of the windows Harry heard her mutter a suggestion as to where Ron could stick his wand instead.

Yes, Ron was happy for a moment and praised Hermione for packing his stuff, but it turns out she did it wrong in Ron’s eyes. She packed the wrong jeans, and Hermione reacts very negatively, telling Ron to shove his wand up his arse. Hermione here must feel like Ron is conforming to the behavior she described back in OotP—he’s only nice until he turns back to his “normal” negative behavior toward her.

Harry complimenting Hermione to other people

We don’t really have space here to investigate the many other times Harry thinks highly of Hermione, is grateful for her, or appreciates some aspect of her in his internal thoughts. But it’s perhaps useful to end this exploration by noting how many other times Harry still manages to praise Hermione verbally, unprompted, to other people.
We can start with the scene that inspired Slughorn in the quotation discussed above, where Ron was disgruntled at Hermione’s ecstatic reaction to Harry’s compliment. See HBP4:

[Slughorn:] ‘Your mother was Muggle-born, of course. Couldn’t believe it when I found out. Thought she must have been pure-blood, she was so good.’
‘One of my best friends is Muggle-born,’ said Harry, ‘and she’s the best in our year.’

Note that there’s really no good reason for Harry to praise Hermione so specifically and highly here. Slughorn was discussing Lily, and Harry could have simply countered with the fact that he had talented Muggle-born friends too. Yet he singles out Hermione to compare to his mother’s talent and goes further—calling her the best student in his year.
Ron never has a comparable passage in the books. Many of his compliments or nice moments are very situational with Hermione, not spontaneous praise. This is probably one reason why Hermione also shushes Ron when he tries to echo Harry later with Slughorn: she knows if Harry said something, he meant it and wasn’t just trying to flatter her or be nice because of the situation.
The best Ron can manage on a couple occasions are vague acknowledgments to Harry about Hermione. Such as CoS14:

“What does she understand?” said Harry distractedly, still looking around, trying to tell where the voice had come from.
“Loads more than I do,” said Ron, shaking his head.

Not exactly a compliment, but this one makes lists of Ron’s compliments sometimes, just because it’s so rare for Ron to say something even this nice about Hermione. Even when Ron is clearly impressed by Hermione slapping Draco and then storming out of Trelawney’s class in PoA15, the most he can manage to say to Harry is:

‘Some day Hermione’s having, eh?’ Ron muttered to Harry, looking awed.

We’re told that Ron’s “looking awed” here, but he still can barely say anything directly praiseworthy about her.
[[EDIT: After posting this essay, I found another Ron line that wasn't included in the Ron/Hermione compliments lists I consulted, but in fairness to Ron, he does say this in PoA16:

‘Hermione, I don’t know what’s got into you lately!’ said Ron, astounded. ‘First you hit Malfoy, then you walk out on Professor Trelawney –’
Hermione looked rather flattered.

So - I will give Ron appropriate credit here and note it's a place where Hermione actually looks flattered. I am offering this correction because I found this line late and don't want to misrepresent the Ron/Hermione evidence.]]
Meanwhile, Harry simply cannot stop himself from saying how amazing Hermione is. As far back as CoS2:

‘Harry Potter asks if he can help Dobby ... Dobby has heard of your greatness, sir, but of your goodness, Dobby never knew ...’
Harry, who was feeling distinctly hot in the face, said, ‘Whatever you’ve heard about my greatness is a load of rubbish. I’m not even top of my year at Hogwarts, that’s Hermione, she –’
But he stopped quickly, because thinking about Hermione was painful.

Remember when we saw that Hermione tried to compliment Harry and tell him he was a great wizard in PS or the best in DADA in OotP? Harry couldn’t help deferring to Hermione, trying to praise her as better. The same thing happens when Dobby speaks of Harry’s “greatness” here—and Harry immediately thinks of the greatest person he knows: Hermione Granger.
Harry can’t even let the Quidditch team think he was smart enough to come up with the Impervius Charm for his glasses (originally during the Quidditch match back in PoA9). When Angelina proposes using the spell again in OotP18, Harry simply has to give Hermione credit:

[Angelina:] ‘[…] Harry, didn’t you do something to your glasses to stop the rain fogging them up when we played Hufflepuff in that storm?’
‘Hermione did it,’ said Harry. He pulled out his wand, tapped his glasses and said, ‘Impervius!’

It’s not exactly a compliment, but it just shows yet again how much he wants everyone to know how amazing Hermione is.
This reflex Harry has to praise Hermione comes up in the strangest places, getting him into arguments with his love interests. When Cho brings up the jinx that resulted in Marietta’s outbreak of pimples, Harry can’t help contradicting her (OotP28):

‘That was a really horrible trick of Hermione Granger’s,’ said Cho fiercely. ‘She should have told us she’d jinxed that list –’
‘I think it was a brilliant idea,’ said Harry coldly. Cho flushed and her eyes grew brighter.
‘Oh yes, I forgot – of course, if it was darling Hermione’s idea –’

Cho is actually quite insightful about the role of Hermione in Harry’s life here. She earlier got jealous when Harry prioritized Hermione on Valentine’s Day, and now she gets annoyed at how “brilliant” Harry considered “darling Hermione’s idea.”
Just as in Quidditch with his glasses, Harry can’t help acknowledging Hermione’s brilliance, even with another girl he likes. He could have been a little more diplomatic with Cho in disagreeing with her, but instead his reflex is to defend Hermione.
Perhaps the most absurd moment of praise for Hermione randomly comes up as Harry’s breaking up with Ginny (HBP30):

‘I never really gave up on you,’ [Ginny] said. ‘Not really. I always hoped ... Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more – myself.’
‘Smart girl, that Hermione,’ said Harry, trying to smile.

Think about what’s going on in this moment. Ginny just admitted how strong her feelings for Harry are, that she “never really gave up” on him, from when she was a young girl. She’s effectively trying to inform him of her commitment, of his status as her first love. If Harry had deep feelings for Ginny, we might expect him at this point to recognize how long Ginny had cared, how much she had tried to learn to be “herself” around him, to get him to notice her.
And instead the first words from Harry’s lips are to acknowledge how smart Hermione is. He’s breaking up with his girlfriend… and praising another girl’s intelligence? I know Harry can be rather thick sometimes, but this is not the thing to do in the middle of a break-up. It’s no wonder Cho was so jealous of Hermione.

Conclusion

Once again, as in many of my other essays, I think we can see patterns emerging around Harry and Hermione’s unique relationship. We see them repeatedly praising each other spontaneously. And Harry can’t help but blurt out how brilliant Hermione is to other people, even in situations where it’s arguably inappropriate.
Ron’s efforts at compliments are nothing like that, unfortunately. We might even feel a bit bad for him when he does begin to make an effort in DH, as it’s clear Ron is never going to have the impact on Hermione that Harry’s compliments do.
I mentioned at the outset that there are many people who say Harry isn’t appreciative enough toward Hermione. It’s true that we don’t hear him say it aloud all the time, particularly in the early books. Yet it’s very clear even in the first book that Harry thinks Hermione is a better wizard than he is. And he doesn’t hesitate to tell her, or to announce it to Dobby in CoS.
As the series progresses, Harry’s outward appreciation increases, to the point where we see him calling her “amazing” and “incredible” and the “best in our year,” terms that he only ever says about Hermione. Perhaps even more importantly, we see that Hermione knows how special she is to Harry, how sincere his compliments are, as we see her repeatedly responding with emotional smiles and even a “radiant expression” to these words.
I didn’t even explore most of the passages where Hermione praises or compliments Harry in the books (and there are plenty more of those too), but we can see the strength of Harry and Hermione’s friendship and care for each other. They both strive to raise each other up, especially in stressful times when they need it the most.
I’d like to acknowledge members of the HMS Harmony Discord server for their support and suggestions. Specifically, thanks to Jiraffas for suggesting an essay on this topic. Thanks for Dragonfly for convincing me to include a section on Harry complimenting Hermione to other people and for reminding me of the Angelina moment in OotP. In general, I’m grateful for the discussion and commentary from the Harmony community.
If there are any moments you think I missed, please point them out in comments! I’d like this essay to be a resource for those who want to debunk fandom claims concerning Harry’s supposed lack of appreciation toward Hermione.

I replied this to someone in a comment who genuinely wanted to understand more and I actually thought it could be useful for anyone else who genuinely wants to understand the POV from a brown person; who has been watching Sam mock experiences of my heritage and culture.
Best way I can explain is this - Sam and Shan have used twitter to laugh at Sheila’s stricter heritage and background (you can find screenshots of this in willy and Leo’s original video sorry I don’t screenshot but there is actually more that they have done that Willy and Leo didn’t actually add).
They laugh about her having to untag herself because of her family knowing, which is something Sam apparently understood when they were dating but is now using this against her. They laugh about her having to keep parts of herself hidden from her family which is a more common experience for POC queer people. As a Brown person who was a Sam fan can you imagine how it feels to have one of your faves mock a really difficult part of our culture? Even if Sheila wasn’t brown what part of being closeted is joke worthy?
I have finally come out to my family but I know other brown people who will d*e in the closet because of how strict it can be and that’s not me blaming Sam because Pakistan has a long way to go. But I will call out him using this knowledge as fuel to a loyal audience of impressionable young teens who will most likely be white and think this behaviour is okay.
They’ve also suggested sending explicit photos of Sheila and her new partner to said strict family. They are doing this parasocially. So, they are literally tweeting themselves with full knowledge of the fact Sheila could see it. It’s threatening, borderline illegal (revenge p***) and culturally and racially insensitive to use one’s cultural heritage against them in such an incentive way. As a brown person, it is VERY difficult in our cultural to be LGBTQ. Sheila actually nearly lost her family just for being with Sam and she chose him for 6 years. So, for him to turn that around now and use that as fuel is 1) white privilege = (choosing to suddenly retract any culture sensitivity because he doesn’t experience it) 2) harassment = what is even doing and how has he got away with it so long?
I want to be clear I believe a lot of these things are sheer ignorance and not intended acts of racism. But Sam is old enough to do better and if he isn’t, we know he has watched the video now so to not even apologise to any of his POC fans who have asked him to stop this (I am not the first or last POC to feel offended by these comments) is disgusting to me! And as for Shan? She’s just rude. So I do believe she intended everything she said and she even messaged in the comments of the video with culturally in quotations like she was still laughing at the experience of other POC who feel this.
It’s not okay and honestly it really hurts to see your fave go so low that he would use things like this.

Disclaimer : Long post ahead, please read it to avoid getting scammed.
Packers and Movers : Alfa Car Bike Movers
Alfa Representative’s Name : Anil Chaudhary
GSTIN : 06IUBPK7676B1ZH
Mobile : +918882303321
Site : https://alfacarbikemovers.com/
I needed to ship my bike from Surat to Hyderabad, so I reached out to several packers and movers for quotations. Anil Chaudhary from Alfa Car Bike contacted me and quoted a price of 5k for the entire service. Sensibly, I inquired about their policy regarding damages. Anil assured me that they would cover 90% of the cost for any damage. To verify their credibility, I checked his mobile number (+918882303321) on Truecaller, which showed it as belonging to ISO-certified movers and packers.
Seeking further clarity, I requested a written quotation from Anil, specifying all terms and conditions. Although the quotation stated the total cost as 5k, it did not mention coverage for damages. When I raised this concern, Anil assured me there would be no additional charges for it.
After verifying their GSTIN number, which was registered as Alfa Car Bike Movers, and receiving an office location for Alfa in Surat, I felt confident proceeding with them. However, upon visiting the given location, it turned out to be Balaji Packers and Movers. Upon calling the number provided, Ajit Chaudhary confirmed his affiliation with Alfa Car Bike.
Despite these initial discrepancies, I decided to book with Alfa Car Bike. We agreed on a payment of 4k upfront and 1k upon delivery. However, Anil insisted on an upfront payment of 1k for pickup. After two days, my bike was collected, and I was given a LR receipt for the 1k payment. However, when I requested a bill, Anil assured me he would provide it only after the bike was loaded onto the carrier.
After a day, he informed us that the bike was dispatched. So, I asked him for the bill, and he requested me to pay the remaining amount, promising to provide the bill and tracking details afterward. Consequently, I paid 3k and informed him accordingly. He assured me he would check and send the bill. However, after an hour, he sent me a bill of 16k. I was shocked, thinking, "WTF is this?" I immediately called him, but he was now very rude, saying, "Tax nhi bharega kya" (Don't you want to pay taxes?). It was then clear to me that he was scamming me. I promptly contacted my father, and together, we confronted him on a conference call. We reminded him that he had previously stated that the cost would only be 5k without any insurance charges. However, he vehemently denied ever making such claims and threatened to unload my bike anywhere if we didn't pay the 16k demanded.
The next day, my father gathered 10-15 people and went to his office. Ajit was surprised to see so many people and, upon reviewing the quotation and bill, acknowledged that Alfa had wronged us. He reassured us about the safety of my bike, as it was in his truck. He advised us to pay the remaining amount, 1k to Anil (Alfa) and 1k to him, upon receiving the bike. It was Friday, and Ajit informed us that the truck would halt in Mumbai over the weekend for unloading, and we could expect the bike by Monday or Tuesday.
On Monday, we inquired about the bike's whereabouts, and we were told it would reach Hyderabad by Wednesday. Ajit assured us not to worry, stating that we would receive the bike soon. However, when we called him on Wednesday, he informed us that the bike had arrived in Hyderabad and would be delivered by evening or the following afternoon. Since it was a holiday for me on 1st May, I asked my father to inquire about the office location, intending to pick up the bike myself. However, when my father called, he was met with rudeness, with the response, "yaha baithe baithe thodi bata dunga kaha hai bike" (I won't tell you the bike's location just sitting here), followed by hanging up.
Concerned, my father's friend, who was in the press and knew some police in the area, provided Ajit's number to the police. Subsequently, Ajit shared the truck driver's number with us. We learned that the truck had started from Mumbai that morning and was 200 km away from Hyderabad. The truck driver provided a location 30 km away from my place, where he intended to drop off my bike, requiring me to pick it up from there. With no alternative, fearing the worst, I went to the location around 8 pm, near the highway (ORR).
Upon arrival, the truck driver insisted to pay extra 2k before releasing my bike. After a heated argument with Ajit over the phone, we reluctantly paid him the 2k and unloaded the bike. Upon unpacking, we discovered scratches on the clutch lever, a broken right mirror, deep scratches on the bike's head, and all four indicators were bent ); ); . It was a new R15 v4 in Red, only 22 days old.
My father advised me to take the bike home, assuring that his friend would help resolve the issue the following day. However, when we contacted the police, they informed us Balaji is not mentioned in the bill, legal action would be challenging. Nevertheless, I strongly feel that this is a case of fraud, and it should not be overlooked.
The next day, I visited a service center and had everything repaired. It's my earnest request to everyone never to opt for Alfa Car Bike Movers and to report their mobile number on Truecaller and other platforms to prevent others from falling victim to their scams.

Disclaimer : Long post ahead, please read it to avoid getting scammed.
Packers and Movers : Alfa Car Bike Movers
Alfa Representative’s Name : Anil Chaudhary
GSTIN : 06IUBPK7676B1ZH
Mobile : +918882303321
Site : https://alfacarbikemovers.com/
I needed to ship my bike from Surat to Hyderabad, so I reached out to several packers and movers for quotations. Anil Chaudhary from Alfa Car Bike contacted me and quoted a price of 5k for the entire service. Sensibly, I inquired about their policy regarding damages. Anil assured me that they would cover 90% of the cost for any damage. To verify their credibility, I checked his mobile number (+918882303321) on Truecaller, which showed it as belonging to ISO-certified movers and packers.
Seeking further clarity, I requested a written quotation from Anil, specifying all terms and conditions. Although the quotation stated the total cost as 5k, it did not mention coverage for damages. When I raised this concern, Anil assured me there would be no additional charges for it.
After verifying their GSTIN number, which was registered as Alfa Car Bike Movers, and receiving an office location for Alfa in Surat, I felt confident proceeding with them. However, upon visiting the given location, it turned out to be Balaji Packers and Movers. Upon calling the number provided, Ajit Chaudhary confirmed his affiliation with Alfa Car Bike.
Despite these initial discrepancies, I decided to book with Alfa Car Bike. We agreed on a payment of 4k upfront and 1k upon delivery. However, Anil insisted on an upfront payment of 1k for pickup. After two days, my bike was collected, and I was given a LR receipt for the 1k payment. However, when I requested a bill, Anil assured me he would provide it only after the bike was loaded onto the carrier.
After a day, he informed us that the bike was dispatched. So, I asked him for the bill, and he requested me to pay the remaining amount, promising to provide the bill and tracking details afterward. Consequently, I paid 3k and informed him accordingly. He assured me he would check and send the bill. However, after an hour, he sent me a bill of 16k. I was shocked, thinking, "WTF is this?" I immediately called him, but he was now very rude, saying, "Tax nhi bharega kya" (Don't you want to pay taxes?). It was then clear to me that he was scamming me. I promptly contacted my father, and together, we confronted him on a conference call. We reminded him that he had previously stated that the cost would only be 5k without any insurance charges. However, he vehemently denied ever making such claims and threatened to unload my bike anywhere if we didn't pay the 16k demanded.
The next day, my father gathered 10-15 people and went to his office. Ajit was surprised to see so many people and, upon reviewing the quotation and bill, acknowledged that Alfa had wronged us. He reassured us about the safety of my bike, as it was in his truck. He advised us to pay the remaining amount, 1k to Anil (Alfa) and 1k to him, upon receiving the bike. It was Friday, and Ajit informed us that the truck would halt in Mumbai over the weekend for unloading, and we could expect the bike by Monday or Tuesday.
On Monday, we inquired about the bike's whereabouts, and we were told it would reach Hyderabad by Wednesday. Ajit assured us not to worry, stating that we would receive the bike soon. However, when we called him on Wednesday, he informed us that the bike had arrived in Hyderabad and would be delivered by evening or the following afternoon. Since it was a holiday for me on 1st May, I asked my father to inquire about the office location, intending to pick up the bike myself. However, when my father called, he was met with rudeness, with the response, "yaha baithe baithe thodi bata dunga kaha hai bike" (I won't tell you the bike's location just sitting here), followed by hanging up.
Concerned, my father's friend, who was in the press and knew some police in the area, provided Ajit's number to the police. Subsequently, Ajit shared the truck driver's number with us. We learned that the truck had started from Mumbai that morning and was 200 km away from Hyderabad. The truck driver provided a location 30 km away from my place, where he intended to drop off my bike, requiring me to pick it up from there. With no alternative, fearing the worst, I went to the location around 8 pm, near the highway (ORR).
Upon arrival, the truck driver insisted to pay extra 2k before releasing my bike. After a heated argument with Ajit over the phone, we reluctantly paid him the 2k and unloaded the bike. Upon unpacking, we discovered scratches on the clutch lever, a broken right mirror, deep scratches on the bike's head, and all four indicators were bent ); ); . It was a new R15 v4 in Red, only 22 days old.
My father advised me to take the bike home, assuring that his friend would help resolve the issue the following day. However, when we contacted the police, they informed us Balaji is not mentioned in the bill, legal action would be challenging. Nevertheless, I strongly feel that this is a case of fraud, and it should not be overlooked.
The next day, I visited a service center and had everything repaired. It's my earnest request to everyone never to opt for Alfa Car Bike Movers and to report their mobile number on Truecaller and other platforms to prevent others from falling victim to their scams.

I’ve already posted about this in a different page but I felt like posting an update would be weird. Me and my bf are both 19 by the way. So background is I’ve been dating my boyfriend “Alex” for a year now. I’ve noticed his family loves to include me in holidays and dinners but when they do pictures they take me out of them. I never really thought of it and thought that it would be rude to put myself in their family photos. But, I find out Alex’s mom has pictures of him and his ex on his phone. Noted she hates the ex now but it caught me strange that she was included in photos and I wasn’t. Then Alex tells me how happy he is because they keep telling him “at least she makes you happy” and that they’re happy I make him happy. I kind of didnt like the wording but thought they just didn’t know how to word their feelings. Then, I’ve noticed they’ve been making comments about me eating too much or Alex is spending too much money on me. I honestly felt awful and when they invited me over I would only have one plate and barely eat. I’ve cried to Alex in fear of their opinion. I would starve myself if we spent the night. I always felt something was up. If I was still eating they would leave the table and just leave me. More information is they’re middle class and I come from a lower class home. I’m a student and work part time.
Recently, me and Alex moved into an apartment. Before I moved In they started commenting on my employment, even though they knew I worked they pretended I lost my job. I tore my muscle and Alex begged me to let him help. I finally did and was worried his parents would look at his bank inform and see he paid my bills. And they did. I paid him back in cash and they accused me of stealing. They offered to pay for his car insurance and phone bill if he doesn’t “pay all my bills anymore” I really didn’t like how they worded it. Then, Alex told me they assumed I was using him for money when we originally met. More info I’m not like a crazy attractive girl and I don’t know what I did to provoke that other than the home I came from, which doesn’t have history of stealing- or what I’m aware of. Even more info, Alex wanted to merge our financials together to pay bills and I agreed.
So with everything, I write a letter to them explain most of the financials was Alex’s idea and that what they think of me isn’t true. I explained I have a job and that I am devoted to my work, even if it’s not full time. I am in search for a second job and have landed 2 interviews. I explain more things. Another thing I said in the letter is there was a trip Alex’s grandparents offered to pay for me and Alex. I cancelled my part of the trip and offered Alex to take them instead, but Alex canceled the trip all together. I really wanted to go since I’ve never been out of state but I can’t have that be a way for them to “prove” I’m a moocher. I’m really sad about my decision. I don’t know if his grandparents hate me yet and I hope not. I feel like I’m missing some random stuff but that’s fine I can edit later. But Alex reads it to them and he said they got mad and said I should’ve been there to explain, but I was uncomfortable with that. Then, they argue that I am using him, walking over him, and using him for money. They tell him the truth that they hated me this whole time and that I am not the right girl for him. He argued that I am not using him and hopefully explained his side. He mentioned he didn’t say my letter word per word which angers me. Apparently there was yelling on both sides and his mom started crying and went to a different room. His dad asked if he was happy and Alex said yes. Alex said that he told them to let him make mistakes and be an adult. So, after that, he left. We don’t know if the deal about using the card will cut off their support or what’s going on with that. Because we already budgeted and merged our finances we are kind of messed up financially due to the “not using card” and I wished they realized. Like, I get paid next but most of it is bills and we have no food because we just used it all to move in.
This has been making me question everything. Why would they act kind but hate me? Why would they invite me over? Why would they do what they did? What did I do wrong? How did I come off as a moocher? Why do they believe I’m not the one? So many questions are going through my head and I feel so… lost? My mind is treating this as a breakup. I don’t know.. Its just knowing that someone is important to Alex thinks I’m this unworthy and something I’m not. I’ve been depressed in the most happiest time of Alex’s life and he’s been so excited and I don’t want to ruin that for him.. what do I do? Ugh. I can try to edit and update if anyone cares. Mainly for now me and Alex are avoiding them.
Edit: I know me and Alex are debating engagement earlier than most but we haven’t even decided that we want to be engaged by that time just that we want to be engaged 2-3 years was the minimum and 3-4 years till we be married so I’d be 26-27.. I know they’re not my in laws can we not argue over that.. they’re in quotations..

Bit of a weird one. I used a suppliers website Amazon integration to list some products. Problem is, somehow, every single one of their products got listed to Amazon in one go. I believe there's about 24,000 altogether. They are being less than helpful and quite blunt/rude in their responses completely blaming me. I'm receiving take down emails every hour from Amazon and the Purge inventory option is not working because they require a response to confirm.
I am responding exactly as they have asked, they want a response with "a)", "b)", "c)". I have responded to the email twice with "a)" (without the quotations) and both times, I receive an auto reply that the email address is not montired. Then the purge gets cancelled as I didn't confirm in time. How can I confirm if the email does not accept incoming email?
Also, would this remove my products that are in FBA? I only want to purge my Fulilled by seller items.

Hi Wattpadians of Reddit! ✨
I’m looking to add a few more stories to my R4R list, as I’m almost caught up with most of mine.
When I first joined this subreddit two months ago, I made the foolish mistake in accepting blind R4R requests, which unfortunately ended in some of them being dropped. Lesson learned! 😬
If you were doing R4R with me, and feel you were forgotten, I apologize. I wasn’t clear on my expectations, and you most likely fell into one of the categories listed below.
Here’s what I won’t accept:
• No one under the age of 18 (MDNI)
• No fanfics, original works only
• Incessant typos, bad grammar, and lazy writing style!
(Honest mistakes are different than flat out poor writing. I still make mistakes myself often, and would love for anyone to point out any in my writing so I can correct it! But I’m not going to read a story that’s a brick wall of text because there’s no paragraphs, has constant misuse of quotation marks when there’s dialogue, or stories that are formatted so oddly they’re hard on the eyes.)
• Trolling & rude comments (I will block you if you use slurs and are just downright mean. I thought that was a given but apparently not. If you don’t like what I write, just don’t read it. 🙃)
• Lastly, not reciprocating the energy I give. I will vote on each chapter and leave a handful of comments, but I expect the same. Pretty please! 😇
Wow, I sound pretty picky, don’t I? LMAO
Anyway, my handle on Wattpad is @rosegoldhips and my book is called Swan Dive A Dark Romance. I’ll link it in the comments below. 🥰
It’s an unconventional, mature romance about a hitman with yandere-like tendencies who becomes obsessed with his latest target’s daughter. It’s written in dual POV between the male and female leads. I’d like to think that Swan Dive also doubles as an action/thriller with an extremely heinous antagonist that might make some readers ✨uncomfy✨ and downright repulsed.
There are 32 decent-sized chapters, and it is currently ongoing.
I do ask that you read the Content Warnings I have very clearly listed at the beginning of my book, before you agree to read it. I understand that not everyone can handle such dark themes, and I don’t want you to read something that you won’t enjoy!
Please don’t force yourself to read my book if it’s not your cup of tea. Reading and sharing writing is supposed to be fun! Not a chore❣️
As for what I AM looking for:
I favor dark romances, although I’m quite picky with them due to how over-saturated the niche is (which is part of the reason I decided to write my own). I’ll read contemporary romance, romantasy, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, action, crime, thriller, paranormal… any fiction that’s captivating, really! 🩷
I’ll accept your request to R4R by adding your book to my reading list and following you!
If you’ve read this far, thank you for your interest! I’m done yapping now. Peace out, Girl Scouts! 🤠👍🏻
— ᴛᴀʟʟʏ ᥫ᭡

A couple of smallish fandoms I read have had a bunch of new fics posted recently by different users who all make the same consistent punctuation errors in their dialogue. Basically they'll write a conversation like this:
"Blah blah" said A. "Blah blah blah!"
"Blah blah blah" said B.
"Blah blah blah blah?"
"Blah blah blah"
"Blah"
They'll use an exclamation point or a question mark before a close quotation mark, but if there should be a comma or a period there, they just don't bother. As far as I can tell from a quick scan-through, this isn't just something they sometimes forget, but something they just plain never include.
This bugs me enough that when I see it, I just close the fic and don't plan on reading anything else by the user. I've seen other users point this out in the comments, though, but it's never fixed. So I'm wondering if this is a deliberate choice. Is including periods and commas inside close quotes seen as too old-fashioned or fussy or something? Like how I've heard some young people consider it rude or overly blunt to put a period at the end of a text message? Or is my weird brain just making me see patterns in randomness?

many times (online and irl) i am perceived as weird. idk why, but i can give examples because its so weird
puts face as profile picture "omg he thinks he is handsome/ its ugly remove it"
posts picture of weird things online in gc "okay ??? what are we supposed to do / ignored and the convo continues"
jokes with my friends "people eavesdropping and rating my jokes and me and thinking im annoying"
literally asking a question because i dont understand "he is trying to be funny"
actually being annoyed by them from their rude acrions "overdramatic"
jokes with teacher "his humor is so bad only millenials laugh*
the things in quotations "x" are not all said to me, but i get weird looks that i can infer they are thinking of this
its not just one group, so many people, so many countries, countless cases, im respectful and treat all people good, but they still give looks and make me insecure and mad in the same time, i may act weird but thats just how im sincere arent we all weird around friends..

Cross posted because I really don't understand where I went wrong. Throwaway Account for anonymity just had a baby 1 month ago. My husband's best friend and his family used to be really close but after they lost their teenage son in a tragic accident they've been more standoffish with everyone because they're grieving. When I found out I was pregnant I thought that might be the perfect way to get them to socialize more. So I asked his wife, we'll call her Emma, to throw us a gender reveal party. She "politely said no' I say this with quotations because I think refusing even politely was rude, she knows we don't have a lot of friends. So I tried again with the baby shower. She again refused and I had a hormonal moment where I lost it a little and wanted to know why she wasn't excited about my baby. She said it was because between work, her other kids, and grieving she had no energy and was exhausted all the time. I suggested she should see a therapist. Turns out, the whole family is in therapy because they are all struggling. Ok, I understand. My husband got mad at me for being combative and persistent so I stopped asking her to help with things. When I had the my sweet baby boy I decided the perfect way to honor their son was to name ours after him. My husband was hesitant but he knew all Emma and her husband Greece's kids since they were born so he agreed but wanted to ask them first. I insisted we keep it a surprise. Since I just gave birth he didn't argue with me. We had everyone over to meet the baby and when everyone arrived I handed the baby to Emma to hold first. She was teary eyed which I thought was so sweet and I knew my son would have close ties with them. So then, while she held him, I said " now you can hold a Timothy in your arms again". She looked shocked and, to my great offense, horrified. She handed him back, said quickly that he was a beautiful baby and the whole family left! Now my husband is furious with how I announced our son's name, the meet the baby party was ruined because other than my family everyone else was quiet and left early. Was I wrong for wanting them to become close and have some enthusiasm for my baby? My husband and his family are very upset with me but my family agrees they need to stop being self centered and start caring about people they call friends.

I recently found a really good book by an author I had never heard of that I enjoy a lot, it was the first time in two years I finished a book. It was in the library's section "Last chance" which are books that haven't been borrowed for the last 13 months which I saved from being thrown away (I asked the librarians what will happen to those books and they told me that they need room for other books so they periodically clear out those that haven't been borrowed for a while).
I found two of his other books, one that I finished reading yesterday and the third that I just started right after. This author debuted four years ago and have released three books. There are plenty of good things but it's one question that I can't really let go of that I would like to ask the author about, but I'm a bit anxious that it would come off as rude.
There are a lot of dialogue in the book and sometimes it's been a little bit confusing to keep up with due to no use of quotation marks and rarely indicating when someone/who is talking or when the conversation is over. I believe this is the author's style and in that case I'm afraid of that it would seem as an attack on the way the person writes.
What do you all say, is it something you could ask out of curiosity when you're reaching out to an author to tell them how they've impacted you since it's only positive? Also, since I haven't read that much I can't tell if it's a common thing or not to be sparing with quotation marks (", -, writing in cursive e.g). And would it be inappropriate to tell how I found his book/books, that it would potentially be thrown away? I'm trying to imagine myself if I were in his shoes how I would've take that but I really don't know.
EDIT
I feel very satisfied with the replies in this thread, I think this is what I was looking for. Thanks. 😊 I just think that I generally wanted to discuss this, not really like venting but getting some kind of grip around it. If I'm wondering about something I'll do my research and if I can't find what I'm looking for I'm not afraid to ask, but the right people (like starting a thread for example). I like discussions about things I'm wondering about or like.

First of all: hello everyone! I was a lurker in this sub for quite a bit, but this time i finally decided to leave my contribution to the community with a music related drama that i feel like a lot of people don't know/don't talk a lot about. Before starting however, i want to clarify that english is not my first language so sorry in advance for any grammatical errors i might make. All good? Perfect. With that in mind, let me spill the tea.
Introduction: who the hell are Fifth Harmony?
Fifth Harmony (often shortened to 5H, wich i will use everytime i need to refer to them for the sake of brevity) was an American girl group based in Miami, composed of, you guess it, five girls: Ally Brooke, Normani, Dinah Jane, Lauren Jauregui, and Camila Cabello. You might know her for her solo career (mainly the hit songs "Havana" and "Bam Bam") and because she actually left the group in December 2016. The history of why and how she left and all the mess behind it is a whole another can of worms which i don't have the time to explain here, so i will greatly gloss over this. The thing yall need to know for this story is that the group signed a joint record deal with Simon Cowell's label Syco Records and L.A. Reid's label Epic Records after forming in the second season of 2012 American edition of The X Factor. Basically, it was the female american equivalent to One Direction.
They were a big deal in the following years, at least for a girl group perspective, relasing their first EP "Better Togheter" and touring in some low-budget concert in various malls in certain zones of America, to build a fanbase. This fanbase was composed for the vast part by teenage/preteen girls, and they begin to call themselves "Harmonizer". They will grow a lot in numbers in the follwing years, and they will also develop a full on parasocial relationship with the girls. This was that period of time in the music industry when celebrities where actually very active on Twitter and the girls will engage personally a lot with the fandom. Keep this in mind because it would be VERY important later. In 2015 they released their debut album, “Reflection", and their singles "Worth It" and "Sledgehammer" became immensely popular not only in America, but also in Europe. They actually won a Grammy in 2014, so it was kinda a big deal. In 2016 they released their second album, "7/27", with the single "Work from Home" which peaked at number four on the Billboard Hot 100, making it the first top five single by a girl group in a decade on that chart. However, Camila Cabello left to pursue a single career and the remaning girls will go on to make another album the following year, their last one: "Fifth Harmony", with the singles "Down", "He Like That" and a feat with Pitbull, "Por Favor" (which is the most 2017 thing i have ever heard, but i digress). Right now the group is offically "on hold" and every single one of the girls is doing something solo with various degrees of success: Camila Cabello made three albums and she is going to drop a fourth, Lauren Jauregui started to make R&B under an indipendent label , Normani should drop her debut album this year (hopefully), and Ally and Dinah made a bunch of pretty underwhelming singles. Now that you know all of the (really watered down and drama-free) history of the girls, let's jump right in the real reason you clicked on this.
The beginning of the end: the rising of lesbian shipping and "Camren"
Remember when i said that the fandom developed a parasocial relationship with the girls? You also remember how i said they were basically the female version of One Direction? Well, that resulted also in the rising of: shipping. Now. I need to be completely fair here. Shipping members of boybands/girlbands was always a thing and it wasn't a such mind breaking news, neither was invented by 1D fans. Also the lesbian/gay rumors about members of said groups were made since the dawn of time (remember the Spice Girls lesbian rumor that turned out to be true?), but in this specific case there were a lot of similar fandom dynamics between Harmonizers and Directioners. You will soon see why.
Since their early formation on X Factor 2012, an initally small subsect of Harmonizer started to ship togheter Camila Cabello and Lauren Jauregui. It started fairly tame, with video compilations , gifs, pictures of them and things of that sort. The girls themselves were asked about this phenomenon during an interview and they seemed ok with it, if not downright amused, stating that the fans could do "wathever makes their boat float". Is important to note that they were actually very good friends at that time and that they were visibly close on camera, showing affection, hugging and things of that sort. Keep also in mind that they were minors. This will be important later.
Now, the term "Camren" was not even invented by fans. It was Lauren Jauregui herself to coin it on a Twitter post and since that day it became the official name of the ship. Even Dinah was actively playing with fans on Twitter about this, embracing what at that time was basically a meme/inside joke in the community for basically the entire course of 2012-early 2013. To be fair, there were other ships between the girls (Camila x Dinah, Normani x Dinah, Normani x Lauren) but Camren was the "main" ship that at this point every Harmonizer knew. During this period of time it was treated as and inside joke by the majority of the community, like i said earlier. No one was getting hurt and the girls seemed to have fun with it, sometimes actively fueling the speculations with certain snapchat photos and Twitter exanges. You noticed how similar it is to the Harry Styles x Luis Tommlinson situation? Well, if you are familiar with that story you can imagine how things went down in the following years. Spoiler: they got progressivly worse for everyone involved.
The gate of hell opens: the Sun and the Moon and the gay drawings
Now we are in late 2013. The girls are doing good: their popularity was growing and they were doing small concerts and meets and greets. Even when they started to slowly gain fame outside the X Factor circle, they continued to have the same kind of relationship with fans and being active on Twitter, answering to them and whatnot. But Twitter was not the only social 5H used: they also had personal Tumblr blogs Camila and Lauren in particular were VERY active on the site, posting poetry, drawings, quotes, typical Tumblr edgy teen stuffs. (ssweet-dispositionn was Lauren's blog and waakeme-up was Camila's, now deactivated) But hey, it was the norm in 2013 after all. Not that deep, right? Oh no...oh no. You are all so wrong. It was a matter of time since that particular subset of Harmonizer (wich from now on i will call "Camren shippers") started to notice something interesting in their Tumblr posts. Now, before going on, is important to specify that the Camren ship affair begin fairly tame and small, but it started to rapidly grow in intensity during late 2013. This was also due to some videos the girls posted on their official youtube channel, in wich they would do cover of songs, vlogs and things of that sort, it's also worth mentioning some old twitcams in this discussion. Camren shippers at that time were analizing those videos and basically everything that this two poor girls posted in search of "proof" that their ship was real. They analized looks, body language, things they said and everything that was potentially "alluding" to a romantic relationship. It was not a joke or a meme anymore, people were absolutely serious and 100% sure that Camila and Lauren were in love with each other and that they were keeping it secret because...management bad or something. This was the main point shippers used to justify their research of "proof" (read as: obsessive behaviour) and "hidden signals", because in their mind the girls were "trying to tell us without being explixit about it to avoid the anger or management" (how convinient, am i right? lmao). Basically the same things Directioners were saying about Larry.
That being said, let's return to the main point: those people quickly started to notice some supposed "parallelism" between the things Camila and Lauren posted. It looked like they were referencing each other and soon enough people started to basically stalk their blogs. Obviously at one point someone named Kordei made fake tumblr reblogs of those two, but they were quickly discovered and shunned. Then it happened. Lauren reblogged a picture of the sun and the moon kissing on Tumblr, and Camila posted the same picture on Twitter and Instagram some minutes later.
It was the end. I'm not joking, it was the fucking end.
Camren shippers went absolutely FERAL over this. But why, you might ask? First of all, Lauren had a sun and moon pendands and suddenly she was wearing only the sun one. Camila was supposedly wearing the moon one (even if i can't find pictures about it right now, i'm pretty sure it was true because i remember it being used as a proof) Also, Camila was liking a lot of posts on Instagram about, guess what, the sun and the moon. She also reblogged a short story about "impossible love" so you can imagine how the shippers reacted. The sun and the moon basically became universally associated with them (moon with Lauren and sun with Camila, but i also saw some people thinking the contrary, so there wasn't a universal consensus), just like the colors green and blue with Harry and Luis. You now see why i said at the start that the dynamics were super similar?
Also, while all of this was happening Lauren posted the infamous "dragon and unicorn" video, which only fueled even more the speculations. She also recived allegedly some backlash because a fraction of Harmonizers (not Camren shippers) tought she was making fun of that kind of "depression videos" very popular on Tumblr during those years. I can't confirm this for certain tho, since i can only find evidence of this event in the descriptions of the former video.
This was also the period of time when fanfictions about them started to grow in quantity and popularity. To be fair, they were already some in 2012 and some people even theorized that Dinah, Lauren and Camila actually read those, bur there weren't a lot and most importantly, they weren't sexual in nature. But then things changed. People started to write smut fanfic about them when they still were both 16-17 years old. And there were a LOT, they literally invaded Wattpad for a period of time. Now to be completely honest, their fanbase was even younger than them on average, but i don't think it should be used as an excuse. Writing porn fanfics about real underage people is weird even if you are 14, in my humble opinion. Hell, i would argue that writing fanfiction about real people in general is weird, period. Especially when you ship them togheter with no regards of their privacy.
Another major event that happened in this time window is the Lauren’s sketchbook disaster. Right now all the posts about it have been deleted, but i vividly remember it. Basically at one point during a tour in 2014 she allegedly lost her sketchbok, and some fan found it and posted it on their Tumblr. This sketchbook was full of drawings of women and girls, in various grades of nudity. Shippers obviously tought that all this women were non other than Camila. Now, nobody has ever understood if this was her real sketcbook or a fake one made by the fan, but nontheless it was a…honestly very rude and invasive thing to do. But again, this is not the most crazy thing the shippers did.
Let’s return to the main point: remember the infamous sun and moon picture? A fan commented under Camila's post with "it's camren yo" and she actually responded negatively. This was the first time one of the girls expressed genuine discomfort on the ship and would be absolutely ignored into oblivion. And sadly, it won't be the last. Anyway, keep in mind that from this time on Lauren will be the one more vocal about the Camren problem and how much she is bothered by it, even arguing with fans on Twitter and blocking people. Camila would stay relatively silent expect for the former statement. A trend that is actively continuing to this days.
The outing and the harassing
Now let’s fast forward to 2016. I skipped a SHITON of lesser important things and moments that happened between 2013-2016, because the gist was always the same: the 5H posted some videos on youtube, the Camren shipper analyzed it for days to find every bit of “camren evidence” in it, they posted the afromentioned video analysis on yt, they recorded Camila and Lauren on the stage (and even outside of it) and they’ll be completely and utterly delulu. At this point the ship was so huge in the fandom that even non-camren shippers knew about it, you literally could NOT be an Harmonizer and don’t know about it. In this time window are situated a lot of now infamous paparazzi style videos and moments, like the one were they allegedly kiss in a car, the one were they allegedly kiss during a tour in Brazil and this pictureposted by Lauren’s mom on her Instagram, now deleted. This last one looks particularly convincing, but is important to remember that this post was never actually confirmed to be of Camila and Lauren. I mean, one of them was surely Lauren but it was never discovered who the other girl was. Some people argue if she's even Camila, some people argue if the post is real since there are no trace of it whatsoever in other places of the internet and people remember it only for the Pinterest repost. Also i feel is important to specify that during this time people also started to edit photos of them on photoshop to make them look like they were kissing and whatnot. It's veracity is pretty much discussed a lot. I personally don't even remember it on Lauren's mom feed, so it could easily be fabricated.
In regard of crazy analysis, i need to mention the infamous bunk-bed video of 2014. It’s one of the most known “camren proof” moment of the fandom, and i higthly suggest to watch it all because it’s hilariously absurd to see how much shippers were delusional about it. The claims they made on this video are insane, such as: “if you watch the reflection of the wood in front of Camila’s bed you can see the silhouette of Lauren sitting in the bunk”, “Camila’s lips are red, she was totally having sex with Lauren” or my personal favourite, “you can hear Camila’s moans if you listen close enough”. Is important to note that in those years the speculations were so invasive that Lauren and Camila started to behave more cautiously around each other, and for understandable reasons: they weren’t as much physical on camera as they were before, they seemed awkard, they tried to sit as far as possibile from each others during interviews. There are a lot of examples of this, but this video comes immediatly to my mind. To be honest, there are a lot of reasons to explain why the bond between Camila and the other girls was weakening during 2016 (again, drama that i would not get into bc it’s not the point of this post), but it’s confirmed that one of the reason for the tension between her and Lauren was specifically caused by the Camren affair. This attempt to be more neutral in public to not fuel the ship was immediatly misinterpreted by shippers, who tought that they were suddenly less explicit about it because their management scowled them. And so this caused people to ship them even more. It was a snake eating its tail: the more the girls tried to silence the rumors, the more rumors they caused in response.
But then something unexpected happened: Lauren Jauregui came out as bi in 2016 and, surprise surprise, she has a girlfriend! Who is not Camila. Good for her, am i right?
But wait, did she really came out because she wanted it, or she did it because she was…forced to do so?
Camren shippers love to forget this, but Lauren was actually outed by Perez Hilton with their indirect help. Quoting Lauren’s exact words from this interview: “I’d been dating the girlfriend that I’ve had at the time for probably a year at that point, but we had fallen in love when I was 15. I was at my uncle’s wedding in New Orleans and my aunt very innocently posted the photos from the photo booth onto her Facebook page. It was a link for the family to be able to click on and my fans are just a little wild and they found the picture where my girlfriend and I — we were drunk — [were] kissing.” After fans found the photos, they ended up in the hands of the one and only Perez, who then outed her to the general public without thinking twice. Lauren expressed extreme fear, felt like the coming out experience was robbed out of her, and she feared that her extended family would not accept her. In fact, some of her relatives reached out to her parents when the gossip started. It was obviously a very scary experience, but Camren shippers did not care at all. In their mind this was a “gotcha moment”, another confirmation that they were right all along: maybe now that Lauren came out, also Camila would! But…she didn’t. Actually, she never did to this day: Camila has never said a single word about her sexual preferences, but it’s pretty much confirmed that she only dated guys so is safe to assume she is straight.
This, like you can imagine, threw shippers in a crisis. One of the girls was bi, the other was not. Plus, how can they justify the ship and support their narrative of the “homophobic management that tries to make them stay in the closet” now that one of them is in an open relationship with another woman? Simple: they started to suggest that Lucy was…a beard. A beard for what exactly? I have no idea. For hiding Camren, i suppose. Because for some reason their management would choose to hide a potentially scandalous homosexual relationship with another homosexual relationship. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Absurdity of this claim aside, Camren shippers were truly convinced by this. The idea that both their past boyfriends were beards was always trowed around, but this time it was different because obviously Lucy is a girl. There were another two “sub categories” of shippers that belived different things, however. They either belived that:

1. The whole outing thing was fabricated by their label and Lucy was supposed to replace Camila when she’ll leave 5H. Also, Lauren and Lucy were not really in a relationship and it was used only for visibility and to “kill” once and for all the Camren speculations, since people were apparently too “close to the truth” or wathever.
   
2. The leaked kiss picture was faked or “a platonic kiss”. Which i find incredibly funny to think about, because it’s literally the same excuse homophobic people will use to try to dismiss lesbian relationships. But remember guys, they were totally allies and they truly valued the happiness of those girls!
   

You can imagine how it went down. Some people started to ship Lauren and Lucy (Laucy) and they actively went on war with the Camren shippers. Other started to harass Lucy on behalf of the Camren cause, Lauren also recived some similar dms and i belive Camila did too. But it’s important to note that almost all the infos about this harassment are completely erased from the face of the internet in the present day. I distinctly remember (and other ex-Harmonizer that are reading this may also do) a Tumblr blog in particular in which the owner was actively hoping that Lucy and Lauren would break up soon, posting edit of Lucy with devil horns and insulting her. Searching it, however, would not result in anything. If someone has more information about this, please, tell me in the comments!
Lauren during all of this mess was becoming progressivly more and more rude to shippers online (and honestly, can i blame her?), blocking people like it was her reason to live. Camila, instead, was silent as a tomb. Anyway, Lucy and Lauren broke up in early 2017, but the fandom was in chaos because of Camila leaving, so there wasn’t time to celebrate. Things were tense between her and the other four, but this didn’t stopped Camren shippers. Even when Camila wasn’t in the group they STILL tought that she and Lauren were secretly togheter or, in alternative, that Camila went away because they broke up thanks to Lucy. This was instigated by an Instagram live that Dinah’s aunt did, in which she seemingly confirms that the two were in fact a thing. But she was already knew in the fandom for saying random shit just for clout, so not everyone took her words with absolute trust.
Another thing worth mentioning: an old Camila’s demo from 2015 leaked in 2017. The song in question is called “Only Told The Moon” and, if you remember the sun and moon thing that happened on Tumblr, you can imagine how shippers reacted when it surfaced. Random fun fact: a studio version of the song it's rumored to exist somewhere, but nobody has ever found it or leaked it. So it can tecnically be considered lost media.
The aftermath
After all of this absoulte mess, you’re probably asking yourself: what happened after 5H were disbanded? The answer is: not that much, but at the same time the shipping didn’t really stop. For context: all the girls didn’t talk to each other for a while because of some unrelated drama that happened behind the scenes, so yes, even Camila and Lauren didn’t talk anymore. However Camila published her debut album in 2018. There is still a fraction of ex-Harmonizers and Camilizers (Camila Cabello’s fans) that wholeheartly belive a lot of the songs on this album are directed towards Lauren. Specifically they reference Consequences , Never Be The Same and I Have Questions. Camila has actually come on record to say what her songs are really about , but do you think they belived her? Obviously not. She was still controlled by her management to stay silent. Do you see the repeating patterns here? The same thing happened with her second album ironically titled “Romance” with songs like Shameless, Liar, Easy, Bad Kind Of Butterflies The problem is that in 2019 she also started dating Shawn Medness and a lot of people (not necessarily shippers) tought it was pr for promoting their new single, Señorita. I won’t indulge too much into this speculation or if i think it was legit or not, but i will say that all the Camren shippers belived that the relationship was fake and that Shawn and Camila were each other’s beards. Yes, because they also tought Shawn was secretly gay and silenced by his label, which was coincidentally the same as Camila’s.
Leaving Cabello aside, Lauren made a very interesting interview during an episode of the podcast En La Sala With Becky G, that went live on October 2020. I higthly suggest to watch it all because she actually talks about a lot of interesting stuffs, but also she directly address the Camren situation after three years of total silence. Basically, she confirms that it was never real and that the shipping made her feel very uneasy, she also elaborates on how the shippers made her feel like a predator since Camila was straight and she was not. Some former Camren fanatics actually listened to her this time and backed down, others were only reinforced in their belives that she was also lying because her management told her to. (even if she is under her own label so is it doesn’t even make sense. Why would she lie? But hey, if you are here you should have understood that not even logic can stop Camren shippers) During the COVID-19 pandemic some shippers belived that Camila and Lauren were quarantined in the same house thanks to some posts on their Instagram. They were also convinced that they secretly married each other because they wore two very similar rings. Remember, at the time Camila was still officially dating Shawn. They also overanlized things they posted, videos and all of the sort to back their claims, even suggesting that they were married because…Camila’s yoga mat was very similar to Lauren’s. I’m not joking. It’s all in the video linked. In 2021 they found an Instagram story posted by Lauren during Christmas in which can allegedly be heard her mom calling for Camila., suggesting that they were celebrating togheter. Now is important to remember that Lauren and Camila still didn’t officially talk to each other during this time, but in my opinion it’s possible that they mantained some contact and choose to not be public about it in fear of this kind of media reaction. And if that was the case, i don’t blame them at all: this Camren affair caused tension between them, so it makes sense they wouldn’t want people to know they were/are still friends. But i think we can all agree that saying this and thinking they are secret lovers are two very different things.
So yeah, Camren shippers still exist in 2024. They are less famous and less influential, but they are equally creepy and invasive like in 2015. Some people still comment under Lauren’s Tik Tok Camren related stuffs, and she continues to say they are delusional and to stop talking about it. Obviously, this doesn’t work. People do the same under Camila’s post too, but she never responds.
The conclusion
So, now that i illustrated all of this i will use this paragraph to write what i personally think about the situation. To be honest, when i was an Harmonizer i had some doubts that there was a layer of truth under all of this. I wasn’t a full on Camren shipper and thankfully i was mature enough to not harass them, but i was suspicious. In light of news about their bad label contract that surfaced in the recent years, i don’t think the possibility of a “secret relationship” (heavy quotation mark) is totally impossible. I don’t necesseraly belive they were in a relationship, but maybe there was some flirt of that sort/ unrequired feeling situation. But ultimately, only they can truly know what happened and we probably will never know.
That being said, i think that nobody should have cared this much about the private lives of two teenage girls. I don’t belive people at the time realized how much invasive and creepy they were and how much damage they caused: 90% of Camren shippers were queer girls in the closet and, as a queer girl myself, i can understand the desire to see your idols be like you, and i know that it was all projecting. I don’t have bad feelings against them in that sense. But you should also be aware that celebrities are not characters for your fantasies, they are real people with real feelings. And this situation was particularly bad for Lauren, who was in fact a queer person and suffered from a very bad outing caused by this shipping obsession. In the interview with Becky G that i linked earlier, she also express how much this affects her current love life, how much anxious she feels around other girls, how much she overanalizes herself in the fear of being percived as a predator. And i think this is very sad and unfair. Those shippers need to realize that shipping real people can caused damage in both cases. If they were friends, all this speculations ruined their friendship and caused them to be distant from each other, so a real platonic bond was ruined for a specultion that wasn’t even true to begin with. But listen. Even if they were really togheter…what is the point? Like, seriously, what is the point in forcing two potentially queer people out of the closet? There is a reason if they “didn’t say anything” and searching for hidden “proofs” is invasive and scary and can be dangerous if one of them/both of them are queer. This is exatcly what happened with Lauren: they damaged the life of a real queer person over a fictional paring of dubious veracity.
And at this point i ask, is it really worth it?Are you really an “ally” or are you just indulging in your personal fantasy not giving a single shit about the people involved, who are openly expressing discomfort on behalf of your behaviour? But the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that a lot of Camren shippers used to excuse their behaviour with “but they were the one to start it” and honestly, what the fuck does it mean. There is a difference between a joke two people made one time and a full on stalking of everything they posted. They have the right to feel uncomfortable about it and to change idea, particulary when the situation was so intese to cause damage to real life romantic relationship (remember all the Lucy drama?). Plus, when they made that joke they were 15. They were literal kids and no one should have continued to care this much about a thing they said for laughs ten years ago. Honestly, it’s shitty to justify this kind of behaviour with this statement. You don’t care about them as artists and people, you care only about the fictional version of them that you created in your mind.
So…yeah, that is all! I tried to write in chronological order every major event that happened during 5H’s run related to this, but remember that i also skipped a lot of stuffs because otherwise this post would be way too long. And it’s already long as hell. This group was truly a mess, and maybe i will do another post diving deep into their Camren unrelated dramas, if i feel like it. Nowdays i think that nobody talks really about them with the same intensity they do with One Direction and i wanted to leave my contribution as an ex-Harmonizer. That being said, thanks for everyone that has read this far! I truly appreciate it. I also hope my english is not that bad and that it was easy to understand. Thank you again and have a good day!
EDIT: Added an insight to the Instagram photo that Lauren's mom posted since some people were confused.

TW:
I'm 14f, I go secondary school- idk what that is in American context, but about a year ago, this girl started picking on me because we were in a friend group and she began to make weird jokes towards everyone- which resulted in her being kicked out the group. I'm an introvert so I didnt say anything.
When I was 12-13, I had to have physiotherapy on my leg, and I couldn't do some pe lessons because of it. I bought in notes, to explain to my teacher why. I didn't tell anyone I had physiotherapy, because I was embarrassed, but this girl managed to see one of my notes. She then told everyone in the pe group I was disabled, and everyone didn't want to work with me anymore. I didn't tell the teacher.
In lessons where we sat next to eachother in year 8, she would loudly say she hated working with me, that I was rude and bullied her. The girls on my table were on my side, but i could feel myself wanting to cry because she was saying i replaced her in a friend group, when that wasn't what happened. I didn't correct her either, I just stayed quiet. I didn't tell the teacher.
In one lesson, the teacher paired me up with her and her friend. Her friend and her would constantly stare at my leg, saying "omg it's so bad" then saying I was "too stupid and disabled" to join in the lesson. I feel really insecure abt my legs to this day, because of how people acted about it in year 8. I wear trousers or tights whenever possible, even in hot weather, anything to avoid people looking at my legs. I didn't tell the teacher.
Last December, I was at a bad point, and I started resorting to doing bad things to myself. She saw the marks on my wrists and told the friend group I was in that "I was a danger to society" and they started excluding and ignoring me. Eventually I got kicked out in January, 4 days after my birthday. My ex friend group told the teacher, and now I'm monitored at home using knives, razors, etc because they told my parents.
In February, she started being "nice" to me. I say it in quotations because she still does 1 or 2 nasty things. She copies my work and gets all the credit. Once or twice, I saw her passing a note to someone- they were both talking about me. Calling me a "gay weirdo emo furry" but I ignored it. She doesn't spread rumours about me anymore.
I dont have a friend group anymore, or any friends to hang out with for that matter. But guess what! Yesterday, I saw her hanging out with the friend group. And that really hurt. I literally stayed in the toilet in tears, considering my options.
Would it be wrong to report this to the teacher a year after it happened? Or would it just be an act of jealousy?

Here's the low down.
I'm a married man, and I have found myself becoming strongly attracted to a "co-worker." I put co-worker in quotations because she is in a different department so we don't work side by side. I only really know her because I have had to get information or product from her department and she has been my contact, for the most part.
I don't like where I'm going with this. I'm not even sure what it is. When I see her smile and have chats with her, it makes me happy. She has never hinted the same way where I think my perspective is. She's also a married woman. We have talked about our daughters. They're about a year apart. It has been lovely conversations that have never crossed any boundaries. Or if they have, I'm oblivious. I've never had really good practice in that department.
I haven't said anything to her because I don't want this to become an HR issue, but I'm afraid of being rude. I dont want her to become uncomfortable. When I do need to go into her area, I don't have to speak with her. It has just made it easier.
I wouldn't cheat, but I don't want to be in a position where that could happen. Again, this is all me, not her.
Would I be wrong to ghost her?

Hello, I’m not sure if I’ve used the correct flair, but I hope someone can help.
My FIL is currently in hospice at his wife’s home in Arkansas. I say “his wife” because they have only been married about a year and a half. His name is not on the house.
His wife does not want to allow my husband to visit his dad before he dies. This is not his father’s wish. They are very close. She, however, has always viewed my husband as “competition.” There are some other fishy things going on that I would be happy to PM someone about, but I want this post to focus on the issue of visitation.
Does she have the legal right to keep my husband from his dad? Due to the number of pain meds dad is taking, he is weak and not 100% “with it.” So even if he wants to see his son, she has all the control.
Is there anything we can do? It’s her house and she’s the wife and has a ton of connections so we feel kind of hopeless. Please help.
ETA: A ton of people are getting hung up on the quotations around “his wife” in the second paragraph. I didn’t use quotations for sarcasm or even to be rude. I thought it would make the post easier to understand and convey that this isn’t my husband’s bio mom and that the house isn’t a family home or something; it’s her’s and her’s alone, adding complications to us visiting dad. Apologies if that was lost in context.

When I was still in university, there was a man who showed interest in me. I was the only hijabi and I was also teaching a non-credit course on Islam. He was very liberal and I did not understand why he would be interested in me. He once complimented me and I told him "thanks but I wear a hijab so that I do not prompt compliments exactly like this one." He felt embarassed and then started coming to my classes. Later on he told me that he was interested.
I was too, but I told him that a lot of his behaviors are concerning as a Muslim. He was working in a financial institution and his salary was based on selling finance schemes with interest. To me that was haram money at that time. I told him that we can have a future but you will have to stop talking to all these women, and this job is not what will bring bread and butter in our house.
To my surprise he changed and then told me that he will resign from his job but after that he will have to be on minimum wage because other jobs are also like that. If he was willing to quite a job for an Islamic way of life then would I be willing to marry a man who will be on minimum wage for a long time before he gets back up? I was like sure. Initially I was very impressed that a man would do that. I thought it was cute. So I told him that I would love to introduce him to my family.
So he left his job and started working in a bakery. He requested to meet my family and I thought that my family would be very impressed. My family was not too excited. He had some social media posts that were from his previous life so they basically said that he is inappropriate. I know that in reality they did not like the fact that he was working in a bakery.
When he came, my family was not very nice to him. He baked the cake with his own hands for my family and my father was like "Is this what you intend to be doing all your life now?" My father just listened, did not engage in any conversation and then said, "Thanks so much. We will let you know." I was so shocked.
He called me and I told him that I will need time to convince my family and he said he will wait. After that my family said openly that he does not have a job and he is not the kind that would fit into our family. My mother even told me "how do you think I will introduce him in the community? that he makes pastries?" I am born and raised in US so I did not realize this blue collar vs white collar mindset that a lot of Muslims have.
I thought that if they have so much contempt then would it even be fair to bring him in this family? Would he not be better off where he would be respected? He called and said that f I decide to stand up to my parents and make a decision then we can have a simple ceremony and financial matters will get better. I thought this would create so much drama.
I did not know what to tell him so I stopped taking his phone calls. He would connect with me on social media and I would not entertain him much. I thought he would get the message. After sometime, he met me in person. He told me that he gave up his career for me. He gave up his apartment and is now living in a shared basement. He has given up all that he had and I have brought him into that situation and will I now abandon him?
I told him that as a woman in Islam I have the right to decide who I am going to marry and I can change my mind. He said why did you lead me on then? You could have changed your mind when I had my career and today I would be a manager at my branch. You took all that away and after reducing me to poverty you want to exert your right to choose a rich man. I hated my father for what he said that day. It really hit me. I told him that I really do not know what to do except I will make dua that may Allah swt give him all that he needs. He was so shattered that he said that he does not need my prayers and any wealth that comes to him through my prayers is worse than the interest that he was earning and may Allah keep such dirty wealth away from him. Then he left.
I found out through mutual friends that he got into depression after that and could not keep the job in the bakery. He was a total mess, mentally and financially. I was morally not strong enough back then and also morally confused but when I found out what happened to him I knew I had made wrong moral decisions by listening to parents. My relationship with my parents was never the same.
They had me marry this extremely rich and highly Islamic wife beater. He never complimented me throughout our marriage. That other fellow complimented me even before we were married and I would shut him up and he would still do it. I was unable to shut him up of his compliments. This man never complimented me even once. There was no emotion in that marriage. The entire marriage was being run on quotations from this and quotations from that. Loveless marriage being run on a rule book is what I put up with.
We had some arguments and he stopped sharing bed with me as a "punishment." I felt so relieved at this "punishment" because I wanted my space from him. His mother was rude over the phone till I stopped taking her phone calls. He tells me that he has done everything to discipline me so if I do not respect his family and embarrass him then he is now permitted to raise his hands on me. I told him the day you do that I will call 911 and you can explain your Islam to the cops.
He only hit me once and it was the typical Islamic "light beating!" It hurt me emotionally and cut me so deep. I left. I did not want to have anything to do with my family, specially my father.
I dont know why but a few days ago I was thinking about the man from my past who used to break all social norms to compliment me and would not shut up when I snubbed him. I found his social media profile. I do not know what he does but he seems to be doing very well financially. He is single but there are a lot of women who compliment his pictures. I am not sure what he is thinking or waiting for.
I was thinking that if I reached out to him and apologized then is there any chance that I will be forgiven? Or would I seem like a materialistic woman who came back when he had money. I am not interested in marrying rich men because I have had my lesson from one. I have my own job and it is only sincerity that I seek now.
​

Your grandmother Joan and I at her kitchen table. Tommy Tiny Penis fumbles for something, gum perhaps, in his pocket, spilling out a baggie of cocaine. All of a sudden the beads of sweat on his brow and his anxiousness stand out even more. Joan and I both look at something on her wall - a plaque? Its round, maybe it wassa plate. A single word in black lettering across the diameter. It was positioned near the ceiling, along the kitchen wall, almost to the front room. Was it in German? We had been trading jokes with our beers. I observe that Priscilla and I would eventually be buying some of the same and heroin as well downtown, and that we're always happy to share if anybody wants some. This information seems to give the sweaty, uncomfortable man indigestion and grunting, he briskly stumbles to the restroom without adding to the jovial conversation. Later, I overhear Joan speaking to her three daughters, relating that " guys like me always beat guys like him - its specifically what they do. "
I've been using the Truecaller app to handle my calls and texts forra bout four years now. Its one of those programs that is endearing - buggy, subject to crashes. My favorite p2p Frostwire is also included in this category. Every time - and I do mean every single time - its updated something is noticeably fixed and something else is broken. I've been using p2p programs since the original Napster, have many fond memories of KaZaa, Morpheus, and Limewire. I won't stop using Frostwire until its abandoned and rendered obsolete. I'll even wear their logo t-shirts and paste their stickers on random car bumpers. Itsan exciting event when it updates, immediately searching through the screens and menus seeking the functionality that says it's still there but isn't. Some peoples watch sitcoms to pass their time I'm told.
Truecaller has the amusing habit of being a somewhat permanent record of text threads. Both conversationists can edit and delete their phone's text messages all they want. And the next time that text thread is opened they'll be downloaded in their original form from Truecaller's servers and right back in their original places in line. It's been referred to as the snitch app, as it has been used in court as evidence. The only way to delete SMS permanently is if the original speaker in the thread deletes the entire thread. Otherwise, it'll just keep resending at intervals. I've made use recently of E2PDF as well - it pairs nicely with Truecaller and tuna. Also, a courtroom approved program, it converts entire text threads to - you guessed it - PDF files. My continuing epic saga also updated at intervals on the Internet Archive - The Gospel of Saint Patricia - was recorded this way. I have a four-year long text thread on my 4th generation Moto G. I am not willing to entertain the notion that it may beea partial cause of my third-party calling app's intermittence. Assof tonight it's at 791 pages, growing organically and digitally every day.
Truecaller also hassan other habit that's entertaining - crowdsourcing its ID information, which pops up and replaces whatever corrections a user has made on their device every time it updates. It usually reverts back to whatever the user's labels were after a bit of usage. Usually. More than 72% of the time.
I have come to anticipate with smiling glee the new round of mysterious contacts that may be hiding behind that icon when MBs are being added.
(I also enjoy typing questions with lots of adjectives and detail into the Amazonian search engine. I'm sitting alone on someone else's barely too small futon onna Saturday night if anyone else is lonely...)
So. I have been texting and calling the phone numbers that my missing fiancé and best friend Patricia Ann Roberts implored me to contact her on, day or night, for years. A few months ago two were disconnected permanently after I managed to hear an extremely short, stressed, frightened few words from my love before the line went dead. Earlier that month I had discovered that Tommy Tiny Penis's line had been changed in its response - the blocking of my number removed and a robokiller screen installed. It immediately let me through, and I left eight voicemails. The next day that one cancelled of service as well. That's how I had named his number in my Truecaller contacts list - Tommy Tiny Penis. There issan other number I still am calling, a 313 landline, probably paid for by his company. Shortly after the cell lines were removed, I noticed briefly after an app update that the contact header had changed. No longer wassit Patty Landline, but Turkey Bone. Which only makes sense if one understands just how infantile and utterly void of useful knowledge Thomas Wayne Randle truly is. I imagine someone availed him, finally, to the fact that his number came up as Tommy Tiny Penis in Truecaller, er something. So in childish protest he renames the remaining number Turkey Bone, probably meaning to say Turkey Neck, which would at least almost make sense, if you were five and this was your first day of first grade. But no. Instead he invokes an image of two children at the folding legged card table on Thanksgiving, each holding a vaguely Y-shaped glossy and greasy object between them in their fingers. One sneezes and wipes its oozing nostrils, inadvertently snapping the thin, fragile wishbone.
Even the largest turkeys have bones at max the circumference offa dime. I will refrain from making a pun using the word " fowl " here. Sixty-three years old, and an embarrassment to the species.
Complete refusal to learn from mistakes or accidental successes. Step on the head of the one in front of you and sink it underwater as you ford the brook. Take and immediately destroy and irresponsibly dispose of. Replacing the sadistic pain and suffering caused to others in the place where happiness from accomplishment and empathy could have been fostered. A wannabe demon. Not real evil. Real evil is actually a threat onna mass scale. That can only occur with the stealth of hiding in plain sight while wearing a sandwich ad sign. Being able to shove packaged food into one's mouth does not impress the recruiters on either side of the moral conflict. If demons exist and eat souls, then Tommy and his lookalikes are still quite safe. Nothing to see here, just plaster garden gnomes.
​
Patty is the most beautiful and intelligent sister nextdoor. One of the only people I don't have to modify my choice of words in speech to so they may understand part of what I'm saying. Anyone who claims that this is anything but a horrendous crime punishable by jury trial is insulting her. Suggesting that she is as ugly, selfish, weak, and sadistic as they themselves are.
Today is my missing fiancé's fifty-sixth birthday.
She is ten years, six months, ten days, and one minute older than I.
We were both born to the same delivery room staff and certificate signing doctor, on the Air Force base in Abilene, TX.
Both of our mothers were having planned, scheduled births at full term, and we were both the first of the day.
Next to me and one on one in conversation she is completely confident, an amazing listener and orator, comprehending information spoken atta percentage I've never imagined could actually exist. Patient enough to maintain an attention no matter how demanding the thoughtful exercise. Knowledgeable about how a human body works and disciplined enough to maintain it. Imaginative, with the creative vision that the Makers of our species possess, to invent and produce the cutting edge of human wisdom and knowledge. That is the Artist's goal: to take the collected knowledge farther.
A truly breathtaking, amazing person. Who has spent the past eighteen years living with a talentless possessor of people; a follower who hates new ideas and actively tries to destroy them. A hollow shell with no created self, only robotic repetition of irrational and self-defeating tradition.
Patricia's voice in my earbuds is stereophonic and the slightly lower pitch offa woman who has been smoking for decades. Dark like tinted glass, as John McCrea says.
" I wassat a party and he was wearing a Hello! My name is... sticker that had Fugazi written onnit. I thought that was clever and he told me he had made it up. Then two days later I saw it written onna cassette case you pulled out of your leather's jacket pocket that had your joints innit!
Fugazi issa French word meaning " fake ", and also the moniker offa noisy Do It Yourself work ethic espousing band, I had informed her, Tommy Tiny Penis glaring at me and sniffling, oily perspiration sheening his brow. Like wow, man. Whata fucking born loser; a phrase truly only applicable to him. The conversation ensuing would reveal that he has also been taking the credit the past twenty years for writing at least four lines directly stolen from the long, spoken introduction to the track " Chemical Imbalance " by the SkateNigs, which, if you haven't heard, you should totes stop reading this and go listen to. I will not be offended. I recommend playing a full set of air drums in sync upon the inevitable second listen. The air ride cymbal you are not hitting with a drumstick I predict will give that arm an especially fine workout. Also up on his plagiaristic docket are the Butthole Surfers, one of the best bands to ever call San Antonio a home, however briefly. Both Gibby Hanes and Paul Leary have degrees from Trinity University, the most expensive per semester college in Bexar County and surrounding area, and home to 91.7 KRTU - jazz and other not popular music! I have contributed enough monetary donations to this station's pledge drives that my torso has been adorned with their logos often.
We should have known. There's that word " should " again. Tommy's taking credit for work not his own was not an isolated incident but an embedded, lifelong pattern. According to my fair lady love the man hasn't stopped bitching about how much fucking cooler I am than him since the day we met. Even to people who have never been to Texas nor met me nor ever will meet me I come up in his conversations. Twenty years later, give er take. Wow. I hadn't hadda thought involving him since the last time he was ineptly attempting to insult me. If my memory hadn't been inspired by Patty's voice his name and face would have disappeared forever in favor of more useful and fun data.
Like this industrial sewing machine service manual, I could only find an online copy of in German. All forty-five plus pages offit. That was way more entertaining than the pathetic coward narcissist loser Thomas Wayne Randle has ever been, even to itself.
He only buys porn with brand names like Penthouse and Hustler. Even though he has cohabitated, in separate rooms of course, with a goddess for eighteen years. Even though she hates it, and she pleads with him that its degrading he still insists on never getting a blowjob. Instead, he'll pretend, like he always does, that he's someone else, someone he thinks is cool, and insists on masturbating in her hair and on her face. Because sex to him, everything to him - and I speak of the pathetic coward narcissist loser Thomas Wayne Randle - issa desperate lie where he pretends, he has power and is somehow important, even though the " man " has never once had an original thought in his entire wasted existence. A waster of life and time. Twenty-eight years of Rogaine with Minoxodil, an ingredient found in laboratory rat urine. Both crying for and resenting his mumma, sexually stimulated by his memories of when she'd spank him.
Does Ira Glass still do This American Life?
She listens to NPR. We were both listening tooit when an interview with the Temptations was playing, that day at Pam's when we met yet again, and assi entered the building I laid a warm, wet hand upon her bare pelvic bone, she emitting an exciting " oooohhh ". Two days after she and Tommy Tiny Penis hooked up. He would later fuck Pam, at her then current boyfriend's house, who was present, on the couch in the living room, in the ass I hear, while I was locked outside with Paula by a mischievous Patty, and my then girlfriend Prissy was at work assa waitress at IHOP. She suggested our little new in-law holiday group each say something defining of themselves assan introduction to each other. I offered a quote I had recently heard from one of the Temptations on NPR. And her eyes continued to sparkle, hazel reflecting blue. Later, Tommy Tiny Penis attempted to earn brownie points with the girls' parents, Ken and Gloria - my next door neighbors, by taking the group out to dinner at Olive Garden, saying he knew the head chef working. So. Filing into our seats at the table, Patty launches a convincing argument to her father Ken, insisting that she sit in the chair he was about to plop down upon. Winning convincingly, she seats herself not next to Tommy, but directly in front and across from me. Smiling conspiratorially. She issin full information gathering mode. She remembers to this day what I ordered. Not the most expensive nor the least expensive menu items, as someone being treated has a tendency to do. But selections based on the nutrient content and healthiness of the meal. Dark leafy greens, lean protein, only a bit of oil instead of heavy calorie content dressing. Beers, multiple, selection based on how well the brew recipe paired taste-wise with the food ordered. While eating, her father attempted to pass the salt in my direction, after being handed it from Tommy, who had just immediately doused his large steak with the saline grains. I told him, apparently in my default radio announcer voice, that I never added seasoning to food until I had tasted it, my reasoning being that it was an insult to the person who had prepared it, in this case a paid professional. Preparing a meal issan artform, and assan artist I recognize the sweat and effort of the cook or chef. The food as placed with purpose upon a plate by another is a finished product - the last stage of producing art is the presentation to the audience. It is now up to the audience to appreciate the finished work. To apply seasoning without tasting issan insult by an uncultured, unaware, and unappreciative person. If modifications need be applied after tasting to match an individual's preferences, then so be it - it's their food. Unbeknownst to me, the actual person who had prepared the food, the actual head chef on duty who obviously Tommy did not know at all, was standing directly behind me when I said this. He announced his presence, and I was rewarded with a complimentary meal, including the beers. Three beers, most likely. Tommy would attempt over and over that week to catch me in acts of verbal plagiarism, or insult me, only to always be bested by my quick and always razor honed intellect. I had already been practicing my craft for more than a decade by that point. The coward even uttered a " faggot " in my direction as Prissy and I left, under his breath, only to have my sharp ears pick it up. So, spinning with overdramatic flair and facing the opponent as always, I pointed out why that isn't an insult, and indeed that I could never be insulted by him, adding a well-placed and accredited quotation by Tom Waits, in French. Much to the confusion of the attacker and the delight of Patricia. I make memories, man. I even blew Patty a kiss, 'til we meet again, which we would, of course.
To backtrack a bit, when mischievous Patty locked me outside with the youngest sister Paula, who I almost always sat next to on the school bus if I rode it, she never speaking to me, I had immediately postulated that since we were so rudely confined all night to the expansive backyard that she and I had a duty to retaliate in kind and consume every single beer. Which we did, triumphantly. Paula grew up to be a big girl, and a voracious consumer of alcohol. Taking me up on the challenge, she matched me beer for beer until they were all gone. 108 each, in five hours. That's one 12oz bottle of various brands every five minutes. And at no time, as mischievous Patty observed, mischievously, did I ever hit on Paula in any way. Come morning we were in someone's car listening to her CD collection. I inquiring about any I didn't recognize. I put in 10,000 Maniacs' Our Time In Eden album, informing her that I had all of their catalog on cassette, including the earliest collected demos. Much to her surprise. I would continue to confound that woman over the coming decades. Upon daybreak, Prissy returned and released us from the walled backyard that her younger sister and I would have escaped in someone's vehicle had we could in pursuit of more beer. She had to go get her daily dose of methadone from a clinic downtown. Patty cringed as she threw the van keys assa softball pitcher would, directly at my face, as was our custom. And I, wearing the leather jacket my grandmother had given me on my eighteenth birthday a decade earlier, caught them without thinking or flinching with a swooping downward arm movement. Prissy's dealers lived in the neighborhood behind the clinic. She was into heroin and cocaine, and I was into her. We went back to my house and I grabbed my guitar, always the disposable emergency income, and a Seymour Duncan JB pickup I had purchased new but not installed yet. I pawned those and used the extra cash for more cocaine than the planned amount, which I would divide into two nice-sized lines on the bathroom countertop for Patty and myself. Tommy, I was informed later, didn't want to share the baggie of coke and meth mixed he carried. With us or her. Ugh. How fucking uncool is that? I guess Pam got some. Eew. I smile now, writing this, remembering Patty playing footsies with me under the table at Olive Garden, and again at Christmas a year or so later under her grandmother's kitchen table, with her grandmother and aunts sitting around us. I customarily wear steel toed boots, ankle high. But that day at grandmother's I had some cushy old man sandals my aunt had given me on, leaving my feets open this time to return the playful gestures.
Tommy Tiny Penis sounds like a cameo antagonist inna children's cartoon. Maybe one oriented for a more adult audience, now that I read what I just wrote. Because obviously, Tommy Tiny Penis is notta suitable babysitter. I mean, ultimately pathetic and harmless because of his malformed pudenda and obvious lack if skills and knowledge concerning sex, but notta character that garners a kind of sympathy or even pity. Too arrogant, inept, and stupid to learn and grow from his experiences. Just a big, fat, butt of jokes for the protagonists to constantly spew victoriously. Entertainment forran audience with a sense of righteousness and morals that find continuously masturbating to lolita porn nauseating. Maybe midway through the episode a brief subplot could be introduced wherein his dear, dear mumma is explained through a brief but hilarious montage to be an additional inspiration for his stunted and fruitless attempts at child rape. Nevertheless, slobby Tommy Tiny Penis ends his villainous vignette as he began it, a corny throwaway uninspired hack piece filling midseason space while allowing a slower character story arc to peak in the season finale for Our Heroes.
Tommy Tiny Penis's cartoon theme song is performed by the band Extreme, guest soloist Yngwie Malmsteen. Oooh. And the gay singers from Boston that married each other. They even include lyrics about how he didn't support their right to wed, supporting further his miniscule antagonist role. And an endorsement from Pantene, for hair that rocks leopard print.
​

This thread is about the recurring topic on Reddit.
My lists are always being updated and expanded when new information comes in—what did I miss or am I unaware of (even if the thread predates my membership in Reddit), and what needs correction? Even (especially) if I get a subreddit or date wrong. (Note that, other than the quotation marks, the thread titles are "sic". I only change the quotation marks to match the standard usage (double to single, etc.) when I add my own quotation marks around the threads' titles.)
The lists are in absolute ascending chronological order by the posting date, and if need be the time of the initial post, down to the minute (or second, if required—there are several examples of this). The dates are in DD MMMM YYYY format per personal preference, and times are in US Eastern Time ("ET") since that's how they appear to me, and I'm not going to go to the trouble of converting to another time zone. They are also in twenty-four hour format, as that's what I prefer, and it saves the trouble and confusion of a.m. and p.m. Where the same user posts the same request to different subreddits, I note the user's name in order to indicate that I am aware of the duplication.
Thread lengths: longish (50–99 posts)/long (100–199 posts)/very long (200–299 posts)/extremely long (300–399 posts)/huge (400+ posts) (though not all threads are this strictly classified, especially ones before mid?-2023, though I am updating shorter lists as I repost them); they are in lower case to prevent their confusion with the name "Long" and are the first notation after a thread's information.

• Wikipedia: "Gratuity" § "United States"

History:

• Abdelfatah, Rund; and Ramtin Arablouei (1 April 2021). "'Throughline': Why Tipping in the U.S. Took Off After The Civil War". Throughline. NPR. Note that there is a transcript if you want to read rather than listen—the link is last icon in the piece's menu bar.
• Alexander, Michelle (5 February 2021). "Tipping Is a Legacy of Slavery". Opinion. The New York Times.
• Barber, Rev. Dr. William J. II (17 July 2019). "The Racist History of Tipping". History Department. Politico.
• Mentzer, Marc S. (September 2013). "The Payment of Gratuities by Customers in the United States: An Historical Analysis" (PDF). International Journal of Management. Vol. 30, No. 3 Part 1. pp. 108–120.
• Stone, Melody (12 August 2015). "Great Gratuity: A Brief History of Tipping in America ". CapRadio.
• Testino, Laura (16 December 2020). "Fact Check: Tipping Began amid Slavery, Then Helped Keep Former Black Slaves' Wages Low". USA Today.

Related:

• "Why Tipping Should Be Banned - Adam Ruins Everything". Adam Ruins Everything season 1 episode 5 "Adam Ruins Restaurants" (not episode 6 as labeled). Via YouTube.
• Alberga, Hannah (23 August 2022). "Here's How Much the Average Tip Is at an Ontario Restaurant as 'Tip-flation' Soars". CP24.
• Ariella, Sky (6 December 2021). "27 US Employee Turnover Statistics [2022]: Average Employee Turnover Rate, Industry Comparisons, and Trends". Zippia.
• Ben-Achour, Sabri (11 April 2024). "Potential Changes in Restaurant Pay Stir Mixed Reactions". Marketplace. American Public Media.
• Ben-Achour, Sabri (12 April 2024). "Washington, D.C., Is a Test Case for Phasing Out the Tipped Minimum Wage". Marketplace. American Public Media.
• Campo Bowen, Kathryn (1 September 2020). "Gratuity (Still) Not Included". The Future of Restaurants. Eater (Vox Media).
• Cerullo, Megan (12 April 2023). "Tipping Etiquette: With Old Norms Gone, How Do I Know When to Tip?". MoneyWatch. CBS News.
• Dixon, Vince (17 March 2016). "Restaurants, Lobbying, and the Politics of Persuasion". Eater (Vox Media).
• Dixon, Vince (22 February 2018). "The Case Against Tipping in America". Eater (Vox Media).
• Gomez, Amanda Michelle (3 April 2024). "D.C. Restaurants Are Changing How They Handle Wages for Workers Who Get Tips". All Things Considered. NPR.
• Gravier, Elizabeth (7 February 2023). "Everyone's Talking About the New Tipping Culture — Here's What Money Experts Say". CNBC.
• Mr Pink. "Reservoir Dogs: Mr Pink explains why he doesn't tip waitresses". YouTube.
• Ryssdal, Kai, and Livi Burdette (1 June 2023). "Are We Expected to Tip Robots Now?". Marketplace. American Public Media.
• Vanek Smith, Stacey (28 June 2023). "The Driving Forces Behind 'Tip-Flation'". All Things Considered. NPR.
• Vanek Smith, Stacey (19 July 2023). "Got Tipping Rage? This Barista Reveals What It's like to Be Behind the Tip Screen". All Things Considered. NPR.
• Vanek Smith, Stacey (26 March 2024). "What Is the New Etiquette for Tipping?". Life Kit. NPR.

Threads:

• "Why do restaurants rely so much on people giving tips instead of paying their employee a better wage?" (NoStupidQuestions; 24 August 2022)—huge
• "Americans, why is tipping proportional to the bill? Is there extra work in making a $60 steak over a $20 steak at the same restaurant?" (NoStupidQuestions; 9 October 2022)—huge
• "My grocery store now asks us to leave a tip when we pay with card, would you tip?" (NoStupidQuestions; 30 October 2022)—huge
• "In the US, if tipping is 100% optional why do you bother tipping?" (AskReddit; 8 November 2022)—huge
• "Are you suppose to give a tip when you order takeout ?" (OPost archive) (TooAfraidToAsk; 30 November 2022)
• "What happens, if I won´t tip at the restaurant in the USA?" (TooAfraidToAsk; 20 December 2022)—huge
• "What is the correct amount to tip when picking up food at the restaurant? (Takeout/takeaway food)" (TooAfraidToAsk; 12 February 2023)—long
• "Is 'if you can’t afford to tip, don’t eat out' a classist statement?" (NoStupidQuestions; 22 March 2023)—huge
• "Why you SHOULD pay $80 tip on a $388 sushi order delivery" (answers; 16 April 2023)
• "The tipping policy at a restaurant I like: Their menu prices include 20% revenue share, paid family leave, fully funded health & dental insurance, paid time off, and a 401(k) with employer match for every employee. As such, no tips are expected. Your thoughts on this?" (OPost archive; title-only thread?) (NoStupidQuestions; 27 April 2023)
• "i don’t understand the american server system?" (TooAfraidToAsk; 3 May 2023)
• "Why don’t American restaurants just raise the price of all their dishes by a small bit instead of forcing customers to tip?" (NoStupidQuestions; 6 May 2023)—huge
• "Is it considered rude to not tip for takeout in todays tipping culture?" (TooAfraidToAsk; 30 May 2023)—extremely long
• "Why would you say that to me??" (TalesFromThePizzaGuy; 24 July 2023)—longish
• "What happens if you don’t tip in America?" (TooAfraidToAsk; 16 August 2023)—huge
• "Why are people so against tipping? What’s the alternative?" (stupidquestions; 24 September 2023)
• "Do you tip less when picking up a carry out order than you would if you were to sit down and eat?" (NoStupidQuestions; 27 October 2023)—huge
• "For US based servers: do you declare your tips in your taxes or do you just 'pocket the money and run'?" (Waiters; 24 December 2023)—huge
• "Do you tip at Starbucks? If so, how much?" (Waiters; 29 January 2024)
• "Is tipping mandatory in the USA?" (TooAfraidToAsk; 2 April 2024)—extremely long
• "In America, what services do you usually tip for?" (stupidquestions; 19 April 2024)—huge
• "Do Americans carry a wad of dollars around?" (NoStupidQuestions; 12 May 2024)—very long

Previous Part: Separated, Jeff the Killer Fanmade Rewrite (Part 1)
Link: https://www.reddit.com/creepypasta/comments/196758h/separated_jeff_the_killer_fanmade_rewrite_part_1/
​
Nathan continued to sit with Liu and help him calm down, which worked thankfully as the two returned to their beds, liu finally getting the sleep he so desperately needed. As morning came though, liu couldn’t stay any longer. He slipped out while Gus and Katrina were still asleep, only leaving a note which thanked them both with some money left behind as a present, and an apology for being so loud in the middle of the night. With nowhere else to go but to Xavier’s house, he started his journey there, having to stop and ask people for directions as he’d never been to that side of town. A train yard? He’s never seen one before, till today at least as he soon arrived at such a location, having to then ask around for a man named Xavier, which was a lot harder to get answers for. After hours of asking, liu finally found an answer, being pointed towards a house at the end of the street, a place that looked rough and run down, but a place he knew someone lived in.
With Sully by his side, Liu made his way towards the house, just hoping his old friend would recognize him even after so long, if his friend even lived here that is. He was hesitant to knock at the door, but he did and was quickly greeted by a rough voice behind the door “Wait a damn minute” called a man as he shuffled around, unlocking the door before opening it. Liu paused at the sight of the man, it was definitely Xavier, how could he forget such a stupid face “Hey Xav, can I-“Liu was about to ask if he could come in and explain himself, but Xavier interrupted him with joy “oh liu! How have you been, man, damn.. what happened to ya? You look like you’ve been hit by a bus” Xavier noticed lius rough look, having slept in the same clothes he’s been wearing since yesterday, his hair completely unkept and eyes looking tired as ever “Heh, about that.. could I come in?” He asked “It’s a long story” he shrugged and Xavier nodded “For sure man, just keep the dog outside” he requested, which stumped Liu.
“Uh, where?” Liu looked around for someplace to keep his dog, but he didn’t feel comfortable leaving Sully outside. “Just around back… come on” Xavier stepped out and shut the door, leading Liu around the building, stepping over some trash and hoarded items. “I used to have a dog back here, her chain got loose and she ran away.. but I fixed the chain, so I guess you could put your dog on that” Xavier explained as Liu frowned, not liking this idea, but he didn’t want to argue with an old friend. “Ok,” he agreed, soon seeing the horrible state that is the backyard. Unfinished projects and old junk lay along the dried-up grass, even glass and nails poked out from the sand-like soil. Xavier pointed out where the chain was, and it was just that… a chain hooked into the ground with a clip at the opposite end of it. Liu reluctantly hooked Sully up to this chain, squeezing his face like before to remind him to yet again behave before following Xavier through the backdoor.
His house didn’t look any better either, smelling like smoke and booze, a sad sight for sure, especially since Liu knew what had happened to Xavier’s father, a similar fate. “So what’s going on with you man, how’s Olivia?” Xavier asked, kicking away a bottle as he made his way to the front door to lock it back up, having a few extra locks than normal. “Nothing much, just..” liu debated whether to tell Xavier about Olivia, keeping it a secret for now “I don’t feel safe at my own home, and I just needed a place to stay till I can sort things out..” Xavier looked back at Liu, frowning softly “This is about your brother? Or one of your hallucinations?” He chuckled, knowing Liu and his problems. Liu huffed “Yes it’s about my brother, that’s all I’m gonna say” he didn’t want to explain more in fear that Xavier would blame him or something, but Xavier was more understanding.
“So are you planning to stay here? I ain’t got much but you can sleep on that couch over there” Xavier pointed over towards his couch which was covered in blankets and clothes, planning to clean that up if Liu did decide to stay. “If possible, can I?” Liu asked, having nowhere else to go, and he knew for a fact Jeff wouldn’t come looking over here. “Sure! Let me just clean up a little man..” Xavier got to work rearranging the furniture and junk, making the space look somewhat presentable “So besides whatever’s happening now.. how has life been?” He asked as Liu watched Xavier with his arms crossed over his chest. “Eh, been off and on jobs.. I currently work at the pizza joint on the corner of Floods.. sully keeps me company at home” he pointed his thumb back towards the backyard, glancing out the smoke-covered windows to see his dog sniffing around his new area.
“A pizza boy, hah!! Liu, I could never see you being a pizza boy..” Xavier laughed, liu even huffed though knew he was just joking “Yeah? Where do you work?” He asked back as Xavier shrugged, dusting off the couch cushions as he had finished cleaning the spot off for Liu “currently unemployed.. just got fired from a hardware store a few weeks ago, says I was too personal with the customers” he made finger quotation as he rolled his eyes “sorry for being real with em, but I mean.. how can you ask me where the nails are when you’re standing right beside em!” He ranted, and even Liu laughed at this “I understand man, people are just stupid” Liu agreed, taking a deep breath that almost pained his lungs “But anything else happening?” Liu continued the conversation, moving over to sit on the newly cleaned couch, and sinking into the cushions.
“No, been keeping myself busy is all.. got caught up in drinks and girls, but nothing you should really worry about” Xavier flopped down beside Liu on the couch, resting his arms along the back of the cushions. Liu frowned softly “Sounds bad though, you sure you don’t need any help Xav?” Liu asked which Xavier only laughed at “I’ll ask for help once you do liu.. heh, with how stubborn you are, that’ll be never!” A joke, but it reminded Liu how stubborn he truly was, and with an argument like that, Xavier would never get help. “Right right, eheh..” liu awkwardly laughed, messing with the scarf around his neck. “you know what… you probably need a drink, with whatever shit you’re going through, a drink would clear you right up” Xavier purred, pushing himself to his feet as he slipped off into the nearby kitchen, if you could call it that.
Liu wrinkled his nose “I don’t drink man, sorry” he shook his head, but Xavier didn’t listen “But have you tried? And none of that pussy shit either.. trust me, some of this and you’ll feel ten times better.. maybe you could even forget about that stupid brother of yours” Xavier tried to convince Liu, returning soon after with two cans of some unknown liquor, unknown to liu that is. Liu took his offer of a drink but didn’t open it as he just messed with the chilled can. To forget about his brother did sound lovely, so he could focus on other things and get his life back on track, but it also scared him, the fact of not knowing when Jeff was going to strike. Xavier popped his open and took a thick sip, sighing out soon after as this was a normal routine for him, even this early into the day. “If you don’t like it, I can finish it.. ight?” Xavier offered, and Liu eventually gave into that peer pressure, what if this really did help?
Xavier grinned as he watched his friend pull open the tab of the can, liu was hesitant at first but raised the can up to his lips to take a sip, feeling the liquid burn his throat as it went down. His first drink, nothing special or something to remember, just an attempt at relaxing after years of nervous breakdowns. “Eh.. weird” Liu didn’t like the taste, or maybe he did? Taking another sip to try it all again, making Xavier laugh as he shook his head “You’re too damn pure man.. honestly, I expected you to turn out worse than me” he admitted, but Liu shook his head “Trust me, I never planned to drink ever in my life.. just didn’t look too appealing? Nor had the money for it” liu huffed, finally letting his guard down without any consequences. “You probably have more money than me, Mr. Pizza Boy” Xavier joked once again, which made Liu laugh.
“Shut up man” Liu shook his head, taking yet another sip as he started to somewhat enjoy his drink. “I don’t think I will, heh.. hmm, but..” Xavier started “You never told me what happened with Olivia… I asked and you just changed the subject.. is something wrong with her?” He asked, liu almost choking on his drink as he swallowed “She’s ok-“Liu lied, looking suspicious of course as his answer came quickly. Xavier frowned “Are you sure? You don’t look too sure” he pressured Liu who did give in, telling the truth. “Ok ok… I promised to see her this Saturday, and I did try… I went over to her house with Sully, brought some cash with me if she wanted to go out or something.. but when I got there, the door was open-“Liu messed with the condensation on the can, Xavier listening with interest “she was dead” liu explained, Xavier even looked down in sadness.
“It's not my fault, I didn’t know what actually happened… I just showed up and her throat was cut, she bled out, and-“ Xavier cut him off “You don’t need to explain it liu, fuck..” he growled, thinking for a moment before stomping his foot on the ground “fuck!” He held his head, rubbing his face with his fingers. “I believe it was Jeff who did that.. and if it was, then he was probably there to ask her where I lived.. so I’m scared to go home xav..” liu kept trying to explain the situation, why he was here and what he was planning to do, or asking what he should do as he himself didn’t even know. Xavier needed a moment to process this as Olivia was one of his close friends, though having taken her for granted, he just wished he could have seen her on better terms. “God damn it” Xavier mumbled out, setting his drink down to cover his face with both of his hands.
Liu felt horrible for telling him this, but he just couldn’t lie. What was he even supposed to do now, he couldn’t keep running or hiding, he had to make a move eventually, but what? “Xavier… I think I might need your help” he started, finally asking for help. Xavier didn’t answer, needing more information “If Jeff is really at my house, I think we should go in and.. I dunno” Liu brainstormed, but Xavier glared over “Kill him?” Liu shook his head “Jesus no.. I mean like knock him out or call the police” Liu waved his hand to further explain what he was thinking, but Xavier turned him down “Can’t help you” he replied.
“Can’t help me.. why? Xav! I ask for your help one time and you deny it! Please, I can’t do this shit alone” Liu tried to convince his friend to help, but Xavier pushed himself to his feet “I don’t trust the law liu” he bluntly spoke, but it confused Liu “Why not?” He tried to understand, but Xavier hesitated for a moment “Look.. between you, me, and your psycho of a brother.. the police would kill me within a heartbeat, arrest Jeff, and leave you off with a verbal warning” he admitted, having no trust for the law. “But you’re innocent, why would they kill you?” Liu stood so he wouldn’t be looking up at Xavier so much, but that didn’t help much “I don't know.. because I look violent” Xavier rolled his eyes, stepping away from Liu to grab a ring of keys out from a dish, planning to leave.
“Where are you going? Xav! What the fuck are you doing” Liu argued, but Xavier didn’t answer, needing some time alone to think, to drink. He didn’t like conflict or responsibility like this, avoiding it all completely with a night of happy drinking, to forget about his worries. Xavier stormed out of the house, leaving Liu alone as he was stunned after what happened, and why his friend wouldn’t stick up for him. It was quite rude. Liu sat back down to think over all that had happened, gripping his hair as he sighed, even finishing his drink to try and keep himself relaxed. What was he supposed to do now, go back to his house? No! That’s a death sentence and a slow one at that. Maybe he’d think of something in the morning, but there still were some daylight hours left before it was night, so he simply killed time by thinking.
Thinking was all he could do, that and raiding Xavier’s fridge for any food once dinner time came around, or whenever Liu felt hungry. Xavier didn’t have much if we're being honest, but Liu managed to find something eatable, whether it was healthy or not was a mystery. However, when night came, Xavier still didn’t return, which started to scare Liu. What if Jeff found him? Oh, why does he always think of Jeff? Has that man ruined his life that badly? Yes, the answer was a definite yes, but all liu could do was force those thoughts down and try to get some sleep on the couch. He couldn’t, as those thoughts still plagued his mind, but now he worried about Sully. Tossing and turning on the couch, he listened to the wind outside, the shadows dancing around the crowded house if you could even call this place a house.
“Liu! Please let me in… it’s cold out here, I don’t want to be alone” Sully called, but it sounded as though he was right beside Liu. “I can’t sully” Liu mumbled, trying to ignore it, but his fear grew the more he thought. “Liu, Jeff will kill me if I don’t come inside, please! I’m begging you, let me in” Sully pleaded, even though the dog lay just outside, under some wooden boards that leaned against the fence. “He’s out here, please, I don’t wanna die liu” Sully continued, which Liu eventually gave in as he rose to his feet “I’m coming im coming” he groaned. Still wearing his old clothes, just without his scarf as it lay on the arm of the couch. Liu opened the back door and stepped out, gripping his black coat closer to his body to shield himself from the cold. “Sully!” He shouted, watching as the dog ran over, whining when the chain stopped him from reaching Liu. Liu made his way over to his dog, unhooking him from the chain as he allowed Sully to come inside, but lured him to the couch he’d sleep on.
“Stay here..” Liu mumbled, making sure the dog understood as Sully laid down and rested his head on his big paws, happily falling asleep, feeling much safer here with Liu. Liu finally was able to calm down, resting back on the couch, he was able to get some well-needed sleep, with his hand hanging down to rest his palm along Sully's back. He knew Xavier would be mad at this, but he couldn’t leave Sully out there knowing the dangers, so he’d deal with it when the time came.
Xavier arrived home later that night, while Liu was dead asleep alongside Sully, who Xavier immediately noticed upon entering. Xavier would have yelled at the dog, but then he saw how Liu slept, knowing that Liu wouldn’t go against his friend's rules unless it was something important, so he allowed the dog to stay. Xavier stumbled off to his bedroom, hidden behind some trash that had piled up in the hallways, needing to clean it out though what’s the point? A true hoarder. He fell along his bed, groaning softly as he thought back to the argument the two had hours before as if the drinks he consumed on his time out weren't enough to save him from his responsibilities, from lius small request. He’ll deal with this in the morning, he thought, as he was way too exhausted to confront Liu with an answer, and he knew the poor guy needed some sleep.
Liu was sprawled out on the couch, his arm dangling off and resting against Sully who stayed put under him, being awake but didn’t go anywhere. There was no place he could go, as the dog would have to jump over hurdles of junk just to explore around, so he stayed by Liu's side for the time being. Liu eventually stirred awake, only when Xavier came over to wake him up by shaking his shoulder “Liu.. get up” Xavier grumbled, seeming unhappy but not mad at Liu. Liu groaned as he rubbed his face, covering his neck with his hand as he reached over for his scarf “What..” liu muttered, hiding his eyes behind his scarf as he didn’t want to get up, but knew he had to. “We’re going to your house.. let’s just get this over with-“ Xavier settled on Liu's request for help with Jeff, which woke Liu right up.
“Really? Shit.. mmmh, ok, ok… Give me a second” Liu pushed his body off the couch, his hair crazier than ever as he loosely wrapped the scarf around his neck, looking like a mess, but could you blame him? “Just meet me outside… I’ll start up my truck” Xavier left Liu to wake up on his own, just wanting to get things done and over with as quickly as possible. Liu stood up, stumbling a bit from this lightheaded feeling, having barely eaten in the past few days, it all just got to him, but he ignored it for now. “Stay here sully.. I’ll be back… don’t get into anything you’re not supposed to” he ordered down to his dog who was now sitting, almost listening to what Liu had to say, but he didn’t reply. Fixing his coat and shirt, liu made his way outside to meet Xavier, finding him already sitting in his rusted-up truck. With a yawn, liu hopped into the passenger seat, overwhelmed by the smell of booze as Xavier had been out last night drinking “Where do you live?” Xavier asked, he too looking rough as he only wore a baggy shirt and pants, his braided hair laid loose over his shoulder as his eyes looked sunken in and tired.
Liu huffed “Don’t fucking act like this man.. if you don’t want to help you don’t have to” Liu spoke out tiredly, finally shaking off this feeling as his body got ready for the day. “Excuse me?” Xavier hissed but sighed “I’m sorry.. I’ll relax.. I just don’t want to be caught is all.. so if we do find Jeff at your place, I’m leaving you there once he’s dealt with” Xavier explained, really not wanting to be involved with the law, and Liu understood “that’s fine.. as long as Jeff is tied down or something, but I don’t want him dead, ok?” Liu reminded, which Xavier nodded at. With that, Liu gave him his address and the two made their way over towards that direction. They rarely spoke on the ride there, Liu started to get nervous and plan out every situation that may happen, and Xavier just had one goal in his mind.. to help Liu and leave.
It was a quiet ride to Liu's house, not having much to say as they prepared themselves for what was to come. If Jeff really was there waiting for them, how would they stop him? They didn’t have any weapons, liu thought at least as Xavier proved that theory to be wrong, having a gun in the glovebox he used for emergencies, which was never until now. Xavier parked on the street in front of the house, taking a deep breath as Liu looked over the exterior of the home from where he sat. “Doesn’t look like it’s been broken into” Liu mumbled, but Xavier shook his head “If your brother has a brain, he probably broke in through the back” he pointed out, to which Liu agreed. “Right.. so, should we just storm in there and see what happens?” Liu asked, Xavier scoffed as he leaned over to Liu's seat, reaching for the glovebox “You want to die? Look, we’ll bring this”
Xavier pulled a small handheld gun out from the compartment, liu shaking his head as he grabbed Xavier’s arm “That’ll fucking kill him man” Liu growled, Xavier let out a forced chuckle as he pulled his arm away “but it’ll keep us safe, Aight.. come on” without another word, Xavier hopped out of his truck, pocketing the gun in the waistband of his pants, covering it with his shirt. Liu frowned but knew if things came down to it, they would have to kill his brother. So with that, liu hopped out, joining his friend as they approached the house. Patting his pockets, liu pulled out the key to his front door, unlocking it as quietly as he could, or attempting to as the clicks of the locks were quite loud in the silent neighborhood. They paused for a moment, liu opening the door to let Xavier in, who burst through the door with his gun now drawn, scanning the area for said killer.
Nobody was there, only a mess Jeff had left that looked pretty recent like it happened just yesterday or the day before. Liu followed Xavier in, paranoia rising in him as he stuck close behind his friend. “Looks like he ran..” Xavier spoke up, going from room to room and finding nothing of interest. Liu looked over the mess, as his fridge was raided and so were any medical supplies he had, even dog food was spilled across the hardwood floors. Cursing under his breath, liu found the back window of his home to have been smashed, assuming that’s how Jeff got in, as there was dried blood staining the windowsill and floor below. “Why isn’t he here?” Liu grumbled “he wants to kill me, but he just couldn’t wait for me! God fucking damn it!” Liu argued, kicking some kind of bag to let out some anger, but it didn’t help much. Xavier returned to Liu, having found nothing as he now lowered the gun, pocketing it once again “Calm down man, least we know now that he ain’t here” he tried to calm Liu down, but it didn’t work.
Liu paced around his living room, rubbing his face as he thought “Where else would he be! I don’t even fucking know… how am I supposed to stop him if, ahhh!” Liu bent down while pulling at his hair, just angry after everything that’s happened. Xavier huffed “I dunno man, but we should leave, there’s no use still being in here if he isn’t around” Xavier tried to convince Liu that they should leave, and Liu did eventually gave in “Fine.. fine yeah, whatever.. just let me change real quick” Liu took this opportunity to change out of the clothes he’s been wearing for the past couple of days, which Xavier didn’t mind “I’ll be right here man” he waited, not wanting to leave liu alone here.
Liu stormed off to his bedroom, seeing that all his clothes were now laid across the floor. He picked up a grey long-sleeve shirt and blue jeans, changing into that as he kept the same black coat and scarf, finding no need to change them because they were only accessories to him. He tried to fix his crazy hair but ended up leaving it alone as he was quick to leave, exiting the house as Xavier then followed, getting back into the truck they arrived in just moments before. Xavier sat there for a moment, seeing how Liu sat closer by the window, seeming lost in thought as to what he’d have to do next if Jeff wasn’t here. “I’m sorry” Xavier mumbled, breaking Lius's concentration as he looked over “Don’t worry about it xav.. just, go home” he waved his hand forward, hitting it back down on his leg as he had no motivation to act polite or even care so much. Xavier nodded with a soft sigh, driving off back to his house.
Xavier too started to think where Jeff may be, but he also didn’t know, not knowing where to start looking, but he had a few ideas. “You know if I was a killer… I’d probably live in the woods” he mentioned, liu pretty much ignoring him, but still listened with curiosity. “The nature trails there are perfect for a quick kill, or the campsites I'd steal from for supplies.. think of that?” Xavier continued, keeping his eyes on the road. Liu thought about that for a second, starting to believe it to be true, maybe his brother was there, but it would be like finding a needle in a haystack. The rest of the ride was silent, but Liu continued to think of where in the forest Jeff would be, only getting out of his thoughts when they arrived back at Xavier's home. “Come on..” Xavier broke the silence as usual, getting out of his truck to enter his home. Liu was slower though, taking his time until an idea came to mind.
“Xavier..” he called, following the man inside, being greeted by Sully who had gotten into the trash, being hungry since he hadn’t been fed all day. With a groan, Xavier swatted the dog away to clean up the mess, listening to what Liu had to say. “Can you come with me into the woods? It’ll be easier and safer and-“ Xavier cut him off “No.. liu, I only helped you this one time because it would be quick and easy.. I ain’t helping you comb through the woods” he announced, which only angered Liu, “you said Jeff might be in the woods-“ Xavier cut liu off again “might” liu huffed and continued “yeah might, but what if he is! I’ve never been out there, and if he does live out there.. imagine the kind of situation I’ll be in, I’ll probably run into a swamp or something” liu growled “and without you, Jeff would just laugh and kill me right then and there..” sully whined as he stood beside liu, rubbing his body against lius leg, leaving his brown fur along his jeans. “I told you I don’t want to get involved! You can’t keep asking for help liu, fuck.. this is all I’m doing for you.” Xavier rubbed his face after picking up the rest of the trash “Look, you can live here for as long as you want, eat my shit, and use my car.. but I am not going out there and risking my own safety with your brother and the damn police”
Liu felt almost betrayed, knowing why Xavier wouldn’t go with him, but he needed the extra help. “Please” Liu begged, but Xavier shook his head “No” he stepped closer, standing in front of Liu as he pulled the gun from his pants, offering it to his friend “But I’ll let you take this, is fully loaded” liu refused the weapon as he shook his head “I don’t want that” he denied, but Xavier grabbed lius hand and placed the gun there, making liu take it “just fucking take it, man if you’re so damn scared of those woods.. this will keep ya alive, believe me” Xavier did care for liu, very much so, but he just couldn’t bring himself to risk his life for liu and his problems. Liu looked down at the firearm, sighing as he pushed it into his coat pocket “ok.. thank you” Liu calmed down, looking up at xav for one final time “If everything goes well, I’ll come back to see you” he promised. Xavier laughed at that, knowing Liu would come back to him, with how stubborn he was, believing Liu would never die because of it. Liu smiled, glad to hear his friend laugh one last time, slowly making his way out with Sully by his side, unleashed, but he knew his dog wouldn’t run too far.
With one goal set in mind, liu started his walk towards the forest, at least to where he’d think Jeff was hiding and not just any old patch of trees. Armed with Xavier’s gun and his loyal dog, he did feel a surge of power, but that power was soon stripped from him the closer he got to the woods. It was only noon, but it would take more than a day to search through the entire place thoroughly if Jeff was even there to begin with. Sully also grew worried as they eventually entered the darkened woods, the trees overhead casting shadows down upon the two, as the familiar air of death lingered around as if waiting for either Liu or Jeff to pass, a horrible reminder for Liu of a similar event that had happened years ago.
Liu walked with caution down the old dirt trails, jumping at every soft noise as he kept his shaking hand close to the pocket that held his gun, constantly looking down at Sully just to make sure he wouldn’t run off. Fear rose in him the deeper he went, and even Sully started to speak to Liu, which wasn’t a good sign. “He’s here, I can smell him,” Sully said, though the dog didn’t even glance up at his owner. “But where? He could be anywhere out here.. fuck, why can’t he just make things more simple” Liu argued, wishing his brother wasn’t so difficult, though the same could be said back to Liu, Jeff not wanting Liu to act so stubbornly. “We won’t find him liu, but he’ll find us” Sully hummed in the back of Liu's mind, liu shivering at the thought, but it was true as Liu knew nothing about this place, assuming Jeff knew everything.
The sun sinks lower and lower into the sky, casting an orange glow through the forest, and Liu still hadn’t found what he was looking for, nowhere near close. Miles deep within the maze of trees and trails, Liu had to stop to take a break, sitting on a nearby log to catch his breath and rest his legs. Sully too needed a break as he snacked on some grass, having not been fed for so long, that he’d eat anything, even crunchy leaves. Liu rested his head in his hands, taking a deep breath as he tried to remain calm, trying to think of where else Jeff might be, but every thought came up useless. With a growl, liu pulled himself to his feet, calling out in a desperate attempt to speed up the search. “Jeffry Woods!” His voice echoed between the trees, even scaring a few birds who enjoyed the quietness. “Jeff! It’s liu! You want to fucking kill me, I’m here! Come get me!” Liu shouted, startling Sully who watched with curiosity, his tail raised to show that he was on guard.
Liu grumbled under his breath, pacing around as he didn’t know what else to do, even thinking about heading back to Xavier’s house to rest for the night… but a voice returned his calls. Not a scream or a shout, but a raspy voice that spoke just down the trail he stood on. “Liu”. Liu turned around as quickly as he could, almost throwing himself off balance as a chill ran up his spine, his heart ached in fear as his breath got caught in his throat. There stood Jeff, still wearing that same white hoodie he wore all those years ago, but it had now turned yellow and stained in old blood and unknown juices. Jeff’s hair, or what’s left of it was practically matted and thin, coated in dirt as even his eyes looked horrendous, crusting around the edges, begging for hydration. Liu breathed heavily, almost not believing this to be Jeff, but that infected cut smile told him that this indeed was his brother or the monster that haunted his life.
“J.. Jeff” Liu huffed out, Sully standing in front of Liu to protect him, glaring daggers over at the killer, wondering what was going on. Jeff just smiled, taking a step closer but Liu stepped back to keep the distance between them. “Yeah, it’s me.. missed me?” Jeff laughed, his voice sounding horrible, almost giving out on him the more he spoke. Liu did miss his brother, how could he not? Jeff was always there for him through those tough times, he stood up for Liu and kept him safe from any danger that’s out there, but now… how could he miss a monster? “How are you still alive? Why? Why did you do all of this!” Liu shouted in confusion, a bundle of emotions playing in his head as Jeff just shrugged. “Lots of roadkill and garbage.. hah, and it’s all just an accident liu” Jeff reached into the joined pocket on the front of his hoodie, pulling out his beloved knife, the very one his grandfather gave to his dad, which Jeff stole to attack liu with. “But I can say the same for you.. ‘how are you still alive! Why?’” Jeff mocked Liu's tone of voice, laughing right after.
Liu froze at the sight of the knife, knowing now that Jeff truly wanted to finish the job he left unfinished, to murder Liu.
Liu couldn’t answer Jeff, not because he didn’t want to but because he just couldn’t. With shaky hands, he reached into his coat pocket to reveal his weapon, the firearm Xavier had given him hours before. Jeff’s eyes glint at the sight of such a thing, grinning at Liu with this teasing stare “You’re gonna shoot me? Really liu.. is that how you treat your own brother?” Jeff started “I know I wasn’t the best big brother, but killing me is your go-to!” Jeff stepped closer, liu heart beating faster as he could hear Sully bark, screaming under him. “Shoot shoot shoot!” Sully yelled, the voice muting everything around Liu as that’s all he could hear “Kill him! Kill him! Kill him!” Sully's voice rang in Liu's ears as he gripped the gun tighter, unable to bring himself to do it. Jeff continued to come closer, threatening to harm his brother though Sully jumped into action, attacking Jeff with a bite against his arm.
Sully had bolted at Jeff, latching his teeth into the killer's arm which held the knife, using his body weight to spin Jeff around and yank him away. Jeff groaned in pain as the dog's teeth were quite sharp, but nothing too bad that Jeff couldn’t handle. So he kicked at the dog to free himself from its grasp, stomping on Sully's leg as the dog whimpered and let go, clearly injured as he scooted away. Sully's leg wasn’t broken, no, just hurt is all. Liu finally snapped out of his daze, raising the gun up to Jeff, firing once as the bullet completely missed. Liu had never held a gun before, nor shot one, so of course he missed, but the loud sound startled Jeff over to lius direction. Jeff now believed that his brother was trying to kill him, so he stopped playing, rushing towards Liu with his knife drawn, slashing at whatever he could.
Liu panicked, swinging the gun at Jeff in an attempt to hit him with the metal shaft, but that didn’t work as well as he hoped, as Jeff had successfully sliced Liu a few times along his arms and chest. Liu fired the gun again, grazing Jeff’s arm which resulted in the man dropping the knife, liu kicked the blade away as fast as he could, but that didn’t stop Jeff from continuing the fight. Punches were thrown, both towards Liu and Jeff as Liu just couldn’t bring himself to kill Jeff still, staying true to his belief that Jeff could be saved, but the fight was going nowhere until one of them fell. Liu was quite bloody and bruised, filling him with adrenaline as he kicked Jeff against his stomach, knocking his brother back to the ground, standing over him as his gun was pointed down towards Jeff. The fighting had paused for a moment, as the two caught their breaths, even Jeff took this time to recover, despite the position he was in.
Fresh blood stained Jeff's hoodie, both where Sully had bit him and where Liu's bullet grazed him, but Jeff didn’t seem to mind as he looked up at his brother. Liu couldn’t even speak, both from the lack of breath and inability to find the words he wanted to say to Jeff, but he believed the two of them could find equal ground now, a way they both could come out of this alive… but Jeff had other plans. After catching his breath, Jeff kicked at Liu, aiming for his area though missed and landed against his thigh, but it stunned Liu all the same as he stumbled back to deal with the shock of pain, watching as Jeff crawled up to stand and attempted to run.
Liu couldn’t let Jeff run away, who’s to say they won’t end up like this again in the future, lius fears would also continue and ruin his life. So thinking quickly, liu shot towards Jeff, missing at first but managed to hit Jeff’s leg with his second shot, watching as Jeff stumbled for a moment before tumbling down, crying out in pain, cursing even. Jeff grabbed the wound against his leg, feeling the blood pour from it as he felt quite lightheaded, knowing damn well there was no recovering from this, not out here in the woods. So there Jeff lay, whining in pain as Liu ran up to apologize a million times. “Fuck.. I’m so sorry.. why were you running away!” Liu growled, kneeling beside Jeff. Jeff chuckled roughly, shaking his head “To get away from you… dumb ass.. shit, you really got me” Jeff groaned, looking as though he was giving up. Liu looked down at Jeff’s new wound, reaching down to try and stop the blood flow “I can get you to a hospital Jeff, please.. you can get better, I don’t want to kill you man” Liu begged, but Jeff shook his head.
“Nope… I think I’m done… I did all I wanted to” Jeff gave in, but Liu shook his head “Don’t say that, come on.. we can get you some proper help, they can fix you..” Liu tried to convince Jeff that they could be together again since they were the only family left. Jeff hummed softly “They’ll kill me within seconds Liu, and I’ll die out here with this shot.. I’m done for either way, ain’t nothing you can do” he reasoned, and that much was true. Liu shook his head “No! Please, Jeffry..” Jeff interrupted Liu by grabbing the hand which held the gun. Liu pulled his hand away, but Jeff grabbed it once again “The only thing you can help with, is killing me… I’m sure you’ve been dying to do that” Jeff joked, even laughing softly as he pulled the barrel of the gun towards his head, looking up at Liu who held that same very gun with shaky hands. “But I can’t-“ Liu didn’t want to, but Jeff was dead either way.
“Liu…. Despite everything I’ve done, I.. still love you” Jeff admitted, which made Liu tear up as his finger eventually found the trigger “I love you too Jeff.. I’m sorry” Liu repeated, closing his eyes as he pulled the trigger tight, hearing the loud bang and wet sound of the bullet passing through Jeff’s head. Jeff’s hand twitched for a second before falling back to his side, definitely dead. Liu didn’t want to open his eyes, not wanting to see what Jeff looked like now with a bullet in his forehead, so he dropped the gun where it was, stepped back, and turned away. Tears filled lius eyes as he cried softly, finally opening them to see his bloody hands and clothes, both his own blood and his brothers.
Sobbing, liu stumbled forward, feeling as though his world had ended, but a new door was now opened, one to a better future. He called out for Sully, finding the dog close by licking his leg, still able to walk on it but it still did hurt. Liu reached down to pick up Sully, using the rest of his strength to carry the dog out of the woods, which took a long while because of how deep they were within the forest, but Liu didn’t stop there. He walked down the now dark streets, the street lamps illuminating his way as he made his way towards the nearest police station, planning to turn himself in.
When he arrived at the steps of said police station, he set his dog down, Sully's brown fur was coated in red from liu, but neither of them minded that. Liu stepped up to the doors of the building, pushing them open as he smeared his bloody hands along the glass, raising his arms as high as he could, which wasn’t much as his body started to hurt. Officers immediately took notice, yelling at Liu to get down, which Liu obeyed, kneeling down with his head lowered. “I am Liu Woods… I just killed my brother-“Liu's voice was shaky, choking up over the name “Jeffry Woods”

UPDATE: so we talked.. he said I should communicate my needs, that does not mean he needs to follow pr respect them. Having waited 20min in the driveway this morning before we could leave, with a screaming toddler driving me crazy, just because the other family wasn’t ready to go and it was RUDE to leave without them. Even though I clearly stated I’d like to go, so I wouldn’t have to listen to the screaming much longer. Guess you are all right, ND support is only theoretical.
We got “friends” staying over. Between quotation marks, because technically it’s the family of one of my 5yo’s best friend from her previous school. We moved away, the parents have stayed in touch and we meet every couple months to let the kids catch up. Thing is; I have NOTHING in common with these very sweet people. Not culturally, religiously, demographically. I have had a super busy week. I am on my period. I almost had an autistic meltdown last night already due to a financial mishap.
So after putting my toddler to bed, I decided to stay upstairs and not go back down to socialise. We are spending the day with them in an amusement park tomorrow, so I need all the energy I can regain.
And my husband, who is always like “just tell people you’re autistic” “just share your needs” has been texting me and urging me to come down for the past hour. There is just no winning. I communicate my needs but I am still urged to ignore them. What’s the point?

I barely arrived and I'm already going to get hate 🤡 but i think would be good to some ppl understand why this ship it's not a garden full of flowers (Did I write this right? I hope so-)
I will try to be as careful as possible not to sound rude in my statements below and I hope that everyone understands my point of view and be respectful. This is not a real hate to the Salvis shippers in general, some parts are more for just one type of the Salvis shippers.

• Angry issues without treatment

Travis visibly has anger issues without any Treatment. I doubt his father would have taken him to therapy to deal with this, even because we're talking about Kenneth right now. A person with anger problems without any treatment could end up doing things without thinking too much, like he did by hitting Sally in the Bologna Incident ep. It doesn't mean he hates Sally, he says that himself. He just hadn't thought much about the moment of anger, however, in a relationship (any type of relationship) it could result in harm, as Travis apparently bullied Sally for a long time. It would be an abusive relationship on Travis' part. It wouldn't be dating "the guy he has a crush on" that would change the way he acts (I put the quotation marks because it was already confirmed by Steve that Travis' letter was not specifically for Sally, this specific phrase is valid for any other ship with Travis). It's not because Sally has already been to therapy and already knows these things that means it would help Travis as a whole, but it would still have a high chance of being an abusive relationship. We've already seen that Sally is still irritated by Travis' actions. In a romantic relationship it is necessary two people who love each other romantically, not a patient and a psychologist in total. (A joke that's kind of sad because it's kind of true, since Travis hit Sally without thinking much because of a fit of rage. Sally probably would have died much sooner or had another long visit to the hospital and Travis would have been the one who ended up in jail-). I am a person with anger problems and I know that a person with anger problems without any type of treatment can go very wrong in any relationship even though after their actions they feel guilty.

• The Fandorization

'Fandorization' is a term I created (as far as I know 😰) p encompass the ways in which a fandom transforms a character from some work and ends up transforming that character into something almost, or totally different from the original work to the liking of the fandom itself. I noticed this with Travis in this fandom. A lot of people make him be labeled as a guy who bullies the guy he likes because he's in love and stuff, made him very shy and a cute character at that, who keeps talking about "no homo" after making out with people he likes and stuff like that as a way to return in his real character in a funny and cute way to the others. This to me is really shit because (even though I feel like I couldn't write this right) it goes a lot out of his real character just because the fandom thinks of him and thinks he would be better in his character. I'm not going to lie that I even like this version of him, however, it's still just something that the fandom created and developed to make the ship seem less toxic and more cute, whether we like it or not. It's practically a romanticized toxic relationship.

• Some Salvis shippers

This part is not intended for all Salvis ships, just for some. So if the shoe fits, you already know.. ((And this part kind of fits with any fan of a ship, so yeah-))
Some Salvis shippers just don't accept that have ppl that ships other things, like Sarry and/or Salash. They keep defending a completely romanticized ship instead of really understanding that there are healthier ships than theirs. I've seen several people who ship Salvos being rude to people they don't ship (Especially on Tiktok, this isn't very impressive, but still 💀-).
Now I'm going to tell a personal story that occurred to me precisely because I didn't ship Salvis and had contact with someone who ships Salvis. Once a person appeared on my tik tok fy asking about Sullivan Butcher and I was willing to explain better, saying that the person could even contact me if they wanted more information about it. The person literally rejected my help because my ship was different from theirs 💀 (They literally said "HELP, NVM.YOU SHIP ____" 🤡💀)
I've also found other people throwing hate at other ships, especially Sarry (you guys know that they're not brothers right? Like.. it's just think a little and you'll understand that they're not siblings 🤡💀)
So what comes to mind is that if these people can't accept different opinions and views about things in something simple, how do they act or would they act in other bigger situations? Of course I'm saying that they will all continue to act in this childish way forever, but it is still something that leads to thinking more about the future and the relationships that this person will have in the future and how will deal with that. Will this person see a bully and think of it as a romantic partner for themselves or for the person who is being bullied? Because I am a person, I have already suffered bullying and what I can say is that I saw those people as everyone, except someone I wanted to have any type of relationship or approach with. So how would these people view this kind of thing? If these people don't want anything to do with their bullying, then they would practically be a bit hypocritical with what they agree to on their ship because of all the romanticization that goes on in this ship, which is also something that, in a way, is something caused by the fandorization that I had mentioned before.
I'm not saying that everyone who ships Salvos is a bad person. I have a friend who ships Salvis and she is one of the sweetest people I've ever met. But I still feel like there are more things than just people having a ship, many Salvis shippers romanticize toxic relationships and this is obviously bad.
That's all, thank you for reading this far and I hope you understood my point of view about this ship ^w, If you don't agree with something I said, please tell me in the comments, but be respecful, plz <3