Shortform

• Massive exploration of the Society beyond the big names we've spent time with in Across
• Villains forsaking their rivalries for survival and universes paving their own roads
• Gwen temporarily eating it but coming back, then leaning on her comic self (A variant)'s new Ghost-Spider ident to mark her defying fate's scythe

Premise

• Installment 1: Exposit - What is the subject
• Installment 2: Analyze - What is the subject's meaning
• Installment 3: Perspectivize - What is the subject's value and suasoria

• Expanded the 'verse and the major cast by throwing a curve into their relationships and own philosophies
• Delved deeper into what makes a Spider-Man by presenting a free will vs. determinism arc a la Civil War that also happens to have metacommentary

Events and Themes

1. Universes

• Miles Prowler can prove that the world doesn't always need Spider-Heroes to save itself, only the spirit of the concept - Spider-Man isn't the center of the multiverse, and given the last movie's title, it will navigate its own fate independent of any Spider at all - let the world do its own thing

• Maybe Kingpin and Dr. Octopus return someway, then emulate their TAS 1994 counterparts in allying with the Spiders out of existential pragmatics

2. Characters and Developments

• The RYV (Reality-18119, Renew Your Vows) Parkers confide with the others including Peter B. on family and how do they keep it together in light of their role as preserving fate and existence itself
• PS4/5 bros relate their experiences of loss and keeping going, especially to 1610B Miles. A great way of giving a layman on the games' plots while relaying their themes to the wider non-gamer audience
• Ben Reilly (Scarlet bro), being a Pete clone and a technical predecessor to Miles, will have his status put to address. His struggles with his inheritance and identity - bearing the names of Peter's parental figures - will probably mirror Ultimate Spider-Woman, and hopefully, he's a major outcrier against Miguel's misguided cause
• Jess-332's and Peter B's babies will interact, leading to the former's moral realization due to Peter B's time with Miles being the reason for his family's reconstruction - influenced solely by extrauniversal (of course anomalous) factors. Throw that Madame Web Spidey (Julia Carpenter) into the fray somehow?
• Interuniversal linkage like in the comics (616/928 and 65/8) can be explored to further the fate-changing theme; whether 928B the bad future of 616B is an inevitability - we haven't really explored 928B - and whether 42 is 1610B's worst possible self and how it can change. The Miles/Gwen dynamic could play here too, 65B and 1610B and the references to the number 8 (which happens to resemble the infinity sign - "infinite Spider possibilities") in Across. Not suggesting that Comics Earth 8's characters play any role, tho, 'cuz per the themes, the duo should connect on their terms
• Variant Miguels when, Sony - like the variant MJs, Harrys, Normans, Flashes, and Gwens, etc. Get freaking Edge of Time, not just Ultimate and 1994, in it
• The locked-up anomalous villains perhaps even helping stop Spot - like Kingpin and Ock above. Basically No Way Home's scenario but tweaked a bit and writ large; let them decide whether to have a new lease of life or to keep their exploits going - their outcomes, their terms as usual. I wonder how would Atari Osborn fare, though, XD

3. Fates

• George lives? Sorry, but Gwen's relationship with him remains strained, on top of her guilt from treachery and deception. Also, the canon event ain't really death, but the Captain losing their job

• Not Peter B., because he's a living meta rebuttal to people holding off (at the very least) on an aged-up/married/parent Peter, the 616 editorial included. Him dying, let alone Mayday (toddler, so definite write-off), would undermine this subtext
• Not Jess, 'cuz she's a mother and despite her jerkish mentor habits seems willing to look the other way for turncoats like Margo/Byte
• Not Jeff, 'cuz that would just prove Miggy's point in light of George being living proof, as well as utterly render worthless all the effort thrown into saving him
• Not Miguel (yes, how dare I), 'cuz for all his pain-motivated harshness, he deserves better than the cliche'd fatal redemption trope of villains, of which he technically ain't one (and don't "Thanos" this as unlike Migs, he knew of better options but foregone it)

• Miguel's right that being a Spider is a sacrifice, it's just their assigned canon events ain't 1:1 across every universe
• Miles' right that you can have and eat two cakes - meaning canon events can be alleviated (such as debris falling on Singh without killing him) - it's just that there's a cost

(Potential) Foreshadowing

• Proof for the 42 antiheroes' case:

... "We wanted to craft this moment where Miles encounters this powerful figure in his life that he loved so much and he lost," says director Justin K. Thompson. "That's when he realizes that he is not really in his own dimension, as well as the gravity of what he has lost. In this reality, Aaron had to shake off his life of crime and became a surrogate father figure to Miles."
... In this alternate reality, the Sinister Six have been able to flourish and take over the world. "Criminality runs rampant," says Thompson. "We wanted to create a world where it felt like Aaron and Miles G. Morales of Earth-42 [this reality's counterpart to Miles Morales] are the only heroes.
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Earth-42, p.190
... This version of the character was never bitten by a radioactive spider and doesn't have any superpowers, but he has fallen into the role of becoming the vigilante the Prowler, under the tutelage of his uncle Aaron. ...
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Miles G. Morales: The Prowler, p.200

• Here's a pattern: We meet multiple Spidey-Peters and our intro hero is, well, RIPeter, then some podcast revealed we'd be meeting multiple Gwens in Beyond; timestamp 17:51-18:45

Interviewer: Will we see other multiversal variants of Gwen Stacy in the future even if they don't have spider powers, like you do with MJ, Uncle Aaron, and Miles?
Lord: Currently yes. ... But there’s one I’m very excited about.
Miller: Yes, yeah, I know exactly the one you’re talking about.
Lord: You know the one I’m thinking of, which is based on... I’m not gonna say anything, I’m not gonna say anything.
Miller: But it is sort of plot-integral, I would say.
Interviewer: If there are other multiversal variants of Gwen in Beyond the Spider-Verse, will they impact her arc, her relationship with Miles?
Lord: I would say yes.

• Friendly reminder they referenced fuckin' Ultimate Fallout of all storylines in Gwen's room, under which she mostly lingers while speaking with her dad. Are you telling me that scene just happened to be shot like that? No, they orchestrated it! L&M! The story that deals with Miles' overall debut and the (of course, cue pathos) fallout of 1610A Spidey's demise! Been struggling to find and spot it honestly, damn lighting and coloring
• Guess what's 1610A Pete (the original Ultimate comics version, not blond RIPeter)'s death age? 16, exactly 65B Gwen's present age. MCU Pete's too when he was snapped
• Notice the last part of the Canon Event exposition scene; Hobie's got the Spider-Man No More comic panel, Jess-332 the If This Be My Destiny one, Peter B. the wedding, and Gwen? Spidey rising from the grave in Kraven's Last Hunt, modified with herself doing the feat. The kicker here: Neither Hobie nor Gwen's displayed events have official releases yet, although Hobie did say he opted out of chasing Miles - which is to say she's next and last, as well as #4 (so deathly the connotations) on the shown list

In Defense

• People keep saying there has to be a much more nuanced wrap-up - an idea with traction around these subs in a good way; to this day, people argue whether that Mumbattan hole was Spot BS or a canon event's unraveling. Mine has that nuance IMO
• Migs up and stated Mumbattan wasn't their first canon event ruptures rodeo and they couldn't save some 'verses from them, why would he be bullshitting or even fully wrong on CEs if he had that Spider team with specialized equipment for canon event containment? They were conveniently there right as that hole formed, and hell, they could reconcile that hole with the Dead Migs dimension where everything digitally evaporates as the latter being the end result
• He put on his shitlist Spider-Holland (maybe along with Maguire, Garfield (the light one)) for a reason - not hesitating to save MCU MJ (Michelle Jones-Watson) rather than let her be Spider-Tom's ASM-121 moment - although one can argue the memory wipe counts as first love loss, along with his Iron Man being his police captain canon event - and Raimi-verse Gwen is very much (per that meme) hot, single, and alive. Observing Sinister, Supreme, and 838/Illuminati-Strange's destroyed realities made him a rage button for 2099
• Showing the other 'verses like the comic-based What Ifs and that Armored Spider-Man one from the 1994 cartoon? It's kind of like a cheat out of the dilemma, and I'm not sure the other viewers would agree. Miguel also knows of Dr. Strange and possibly his What If? versions
  • Before someone "Absolute Points solve themselves, Society's unneeded" me, we know too the APs are a nascent concept and Miguel probably thought no two universes will always solve themselves and CEs are probably spontaneous - maybe a day, a week, or even a year plus, they will happen, scapegoat or not
  • To the people who say Migs was mistaken in how he destroyed that reality and that it was an Incursion: IT WASN'T ONE, because it would have caused a collision course between that 'verse and 928B, which I don't think they have any means to stop - only someone like Strange. Aside from the trolley sacrifice of one Earth, we're not privy to what are the other seven ways to averting Incursions. Guess what, Gabri's reality went poof on its apparent own while 928B stayed very much alive. Didn't even look like 928B was approaching from the skies at the time either
  • Returning to Miles' side, I also hear of the fixed time points comparison from Dr. Who; I'd like to point out the Doctor was able to fake his death by hiding inside a, uh, humanoid ship at Lake Silencio, so I've read, despite records saying so
• They keep insisting "First time for everything," right, plus the cake stuff? Why not a Venom Blast resuscitation somehow on the brink of death, then being comatose or some other critical injury so the "lost Lenore" event doesn't stick? Or! In the style of BvS Dawn of Justice and What if? Spider-Man The Other (plus Ultimate Gwen ofc)...symbiotic resurrection (possibly even transporting that one symbiote drop in that bar in the MCU), and cue Gwenom arc in some spinoff like Spider-Women
• Alternatively, to avoid the fridged LI trope absolutely, Rio gets the Ultimate comics treatment of death somehow - but as said repeatedly, doing one's own thing, and I think this Spider-War's seen enough dead Moraleses. Miles has already grown and seen enough from the other Spiders' losses and his own. Honestly, people need to hear comic quotes often, take Mark Waid's Daredevil run:

Rachel Cole: You know what gives me the strength? My loss. We're alike that way, I imagine. Admit it, nobody who's a stranger to that particular pain could ever be as driven as us.
Daredevil: Never... Don't you ever say that to me ever again, that is a repellent statement, it's a vomituous insult to every cop, every fireman, every soldier alive who steps up to fight for those who can't! I am sorry for your loss, but if you genuinely believe that only the death of a loved one can motivate a human being to take up a cause...then get your pathetic cynical ass out of my way so I can do my job!

Future Implications

Shortform

• Massive exploration of the Society beyond the big names we've spent time with in Across
• Villains forsaking their rivalries for survival and universes paving their own roads
• Gwen temporarily eating it but coming back, then leaning on her comic self (A variant)'s new Ghost-Spider ident to mark her defying fate's scythe

Premise

• Installment 1: Exposit - What is the subject
• Installment 2: Analyze - What is the subject's meaning
• Installment 3: Perspectivize - What is the subject's value and suasoria

• Expanded the 'verse and the major cast by throwing a curve into their relationships and own philosophies
• Delved deeper into what makes a Spider-Man by presenting a free will vs. determinism arc a la Civil War that also happens to have metacommentary

Events and Themes

1. Universes

• Miles Prowler can prove that the world doesn't always need Spider-Heroes to save itself, only the spirit of the concept - Spider-Man isn't the center of the multiverse, and given the last movie's title, it will navigate its own fate independent of any Spider at all - let the world do its own thing

• Maybe Kingpin and Dr. Octopus return someway, then emulate their TAS 1994 counterparts in allying with the Spiders out of existential pragmatics

2. Characters and Developments

• The RYV (Reality-18119, Renew Your Vows) Parkers confide with the others including Peter B. on family and how do they keep it together in light of their role as preserving fate and existence itself
• PS4/5 bros relate their experiences of loss and keeping going, especially to 1610B Miles. A great way of giving a layman on the games' plots while relaying their themes to the wider non-gamer audience
• Ben Reilly (Scarlet bro), being a Pete clone and a technical predecessor to Miles, will have his status put to address. His struggles with his inheritance and identity - bearing the names of Peter's parental figures - will probably mirror Ultimate Spider-Woman, and hopefully, he's a major outcrier against Miguel's misguided cause
• Jess-332's and Peter B's babies will interact, leading to the former's moral realization due to Peter B's time with Miles being the reason for his family's reconstruction - influenced solely by extrauniversal (of course anomalous) factors. Throw that Madame Web Spidey (Julia Carpenter) into the fray somehow?
• Interuniversal linkage like in the comics (616/928 and 65/8) can be explored to further the fate-changing theme; whether 928B the bad future of 616B is an inevitability - we haven't really explored 928B - and whether 42 is 1610B's worst possible self and how it can change. The Miles/Gwen dynamic could play here too, 65B and 1610B and the references to the number 8 (which happens to resemble the infinity sign - "infinite Spider possibilities") in Across. Not suggesting that Comics Earth 8's characters play any role, tho, 'cuz per the themes, the duo should connect on their terms
• Variant Miguels when, Sony - like the variant MJs, Harrys, Normans, Flashes, and Gwens, etc. Get freaking Edge of Time, not just Ultimate and 1994, in it
• The locked-up anomalous villains perhaps even helping stop Spot - like Kingpin and Ock above. Basically No Way Home's scenario but tweaked a bit and writ large; let them decide whether to have a new lease of life or to keep their exploits going - their outcomes, their terms as usual. I wonder how would Atari Osborn fare, though, XD

3. Fates

• George lives? Sorry, but Gwen's relationship with him remains strained, on top of her guilt from treachery and deception. Also, the canon event ain't really death, but the Captain losing their job

• Not Peter B., because he's a living meta rebuttal to people holding off (at the very least) on an aged-up/married/parent Peter, the 616 editorial included. Him dying, let alone Mayday (toddler, so definite write-off), would undermine this subtext
• Not Jess, 'cuz she's a mother and despite her jerkish mentor habits seems willing to look the other way for turncoats like Margo/Byte
• Not Jeff, 'cuz that would just prove Miggy's point in light of George being living proof, as well as utterly render worthless all the effort thrown into saving him
• Not Miguel (yes, how dare I), 'cuz for all his pain-motivated harshness, he deserves better than the cliche'd fatal redemption trope of villains, of which he technically ain't one (and don't "Thanos" this as unlike Migs, he knew of better options but foregone it)

• Miguel's right that being a Spider is a sacrifice, it's just their assigned canon events ain't 1:1 across every universe
• Miles' right that you can have and eat two cakes - meaning canon events can be alleviated (such as debris falling on Singh without killing him) - it's just that there's a cost

(Potential) Foreshadowing

• Proof for the 42 antiheroes' case:

... "We wanted to craft this moment where Miles encounters this powerful figure in his life that he loved so much and he lost," says director Justin K. Thompson. "That's when he realizes that he is not really in his own dimension, as well as the gravity of what he has lost. In this reality, Aaron had to shake off his life of crime and became a surrogate father figure to Miles."
... In this alternate reality, the Sinister Six have been able to flourish and take over the world. "Criminality runs rampant," says Thompson. "We wanted to create a world where it felt like Aaron and Miles G. Morales of Earth-42 [this reality's counterpart to Miles Morales] are the only heroes.
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Earth-42, p.190
... This version of the character was never bitten by a radioactive spider and doesn't have any superpowers, but he has fallen into the role of becoming the vigilante the Prowler, under the tutelage of his uncle Aaron. ...
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Miles G. Morales: The Prowler, p.200

• Here's a pattern: We meet multiple Spidey-Peters and our intro hero is, well, RIPeter, then some podcast revealed we'd be meeting multiple Gwens in Beyond; timestamp 17:51-18:45

Interviewer: Will we see other multiversal variants of Gwen Stacy in the future even if they don't have spider powers, like you do with MJ, Uncle Aaron, and Miles?
Lord: Currently yes. ... But there’s one I’m very excited about.
Miller: Yes, yeah, I know exactly the one you’re talking about.
Lord: You know the one I’m thinking of, which is based on... I’m not gonna say anything, I’m not gonna say anything.
Miller: But it is sort of plot-integral, I would say.
Interviewer: If there are other multiversal variants of Gwen in Beyond the Spider-Verse, will they impact her arc, her relationship with Miles?
Lord: I would say yes.

• Friendly reminder they referenced fuckin' Ultimate Fallout of all storylines in Gwen's room, under which she mostly lingers while speaking with her dad. Are you telling me that scene just happened to be shot like that? No, they orchestrated it! L&M! The story that deals with Miles' overall debut and the (of course, cue pathos) fallout of 1610A Spidey's demise! Been struggling to find and spot it honestly, damn lighting and coloring
• Guess what's 1610A Pete (the original Ultimate comics version, not blond RIPeter)'s death age? 16, exactly 65B Gwen's present age. MCU Pete's too when he was snapped
• Notice the last part of the Canon Event exposition scene; Hobie's got the Spider-Man No More comic panel, Jess-332 the If This Be My Destiny one, Peter B. the wedding, and Gwen? Spidey rising from the grave in Kraven's Last Hunt, modified with herself doing the feat. The kicker here: Neither Hobie nor Gwen's displayed events have official releases yet, although Hobie did say he opted out of chasing Miles - which is to say she's next and last, as well as #4 (so deathly the connotations) on the shown list

In Defense

• People keep saying there has to be a much more nuanced wrap-up - an idea with traction around these subs in a good way; to this day, people argue whether that Mumbattan hole was Spot BS or a canon event's unraveling. Mine has that nuance IMO
• Migs up and stated Mumbattan wasn't their first canon event ruptures rodeo and they couldn't save some 'verses from them, why would he be bullshitting or even fully wrong on CEs if he had that Spider team with specialized equipment for canon event containment? They were conveniently there right as that hole formed, and hell, they could reconcile that hole with the Dead Migs dimension where everything digitally evaporates as the latter being the end result
• He put on his shitlist Spider-Holland (maybe along with Maguire, Garfield (the light one)) for a reason - not hesitating to save MCU MJ (Michelle Jones-Watson) rather than let her be Spider-Tom's ASM-121 moment - although one can argue the memory wipe counts as first love loss, along with his Iron Man being his police captain canon event - and Raimi-verse Gwen is very much (per that meme) hot, single, and alive. Observing Sinister, Supreme, and 838/Illuminati-Strange's destroyed realities made him a rage button for 2099
• Showing the other 'verses like the comic-based What Ifs and that Armored Spider-Man one from the 1994 cartoon? It's kind of like a cheat out of the dilemma, and I'm not sure the other viewers would agree. Miguel also knows of Dr. Strange and possibly his What If? versions
  • Before someone "Absolute Points solve themselves, Society's unneeded" me, we know too the APs are a nascent concept and Miguel probably thought no two universes will always solve themselves and CEs are probably spontaneous - maybe a day, a week, or even a year plus, they will happen, scapegoat or not
  • To the people who say Migs was mistaken in how he destroyed that reality and that it was an Incursion: IT WASN'T ONE, because it would have caused a collision course between that 'verse and 928B, which I don't think they have any means to stop - only someone like Strange. Aside from the trolley sacrifice of one Earth, we're not privy to what are the other seven ways to averting Incursions. Guess what, Gabri's reality went poof on its apparent own while 928B stayed very much alive. Didn't even look like 928B was approaching from the skies at the time either
  • Returning to Miles' side, I also hear of the fixed time points comparison from Dr. Who; I'd like to point out the Doctor was able to fake his death by hiding inside a, uh, humanoid ship at Lake Silencio, so I've read, despite records saying so
• They keep insisting "First time for everything," right, plus the cake stuff? Why not a Venom Blast resuscitation somehow on the brink of death, then being comatose or some other critical injury so the "lost Lenore" event doesn't stick? Or! In the style of BvS Dawn of Justice and What if? Spider-Man The Other (plus Ultimate Gwen ofc)...symbiotic resurrection (possibly even transporting that one symbiote drop in that bar in the MCU), and cue Gwenom arc in some spinoff like Spider-Women
• Alternatively, to avoid the fridged LI trope absolutely, Rio gets the Ultimate comics treatment of death somehow - but as said repeatedly, doing one's own thing, and I think this Spider-War's seen enough dead Moraleses. Miles has already grown and seen enough from the other Spiders' losses and his own. Honestly, people need to hear comic quotes often, take Mark Waid's Daredevil run:

Rachel Cole: You know what gives me the strength? My loss. We're alike that way, I imagine. Admit it, nobody who's a stranger to that particular pain could ever be as driven as us.
Daredevil: Never... Don't you ever say that to me ever again, that is a repellent statement, it's a vomituous insult to every cop, every fireman, every soldier alive who steps up to fight for those who can't! I am sorry for your loss, but if you genuinely believe that only the death of a loved one can motivate a human being to take up a cause...then get your pathetic cynical ass out of my way so I can do my job!

Future Implications

Shortform

• Massive exploration of the Society beyond the big names we've spent time with in Across
• Villains forsaking their rivalries for survival and universes paving their own roads
• Gwen temporarily eating it but coming back, then leaning on her comic self (A variant)'s new Ghost-Spider ident to mark her defying fate's scythe

Premise

• Installment 1: Exposit - What is the subject
• Installment 2: Analyze - What is the subject's meaning
• Installment 3: Perspectivize - What is the subject's value and suasoria

• Expanded the 'verse and the major cast by throwing a curve into their relationships and own philosophies
• Delved deeper into what makes a Spider-Man by presenting a free will vs. determinism arc a la Civil War that also happens to have metacommentary

Events and Themes

1. Universes

• Miles Prowler can prove that the world doesn't always need Spider-Heroes to save itself, only the spirit of the concept - Spider-Man isn't the center of the multiverse, and given the last movie's title, it will navigate its own fate independent of any Spider at all - let the world do its own thing

• Maybe Kingpin and Dr. Octopus return someway, then emulate their TAS 1994 counterparts in allying with the Spiders out of existential pragmatics

2. Characters and Developments

• The RYV (Reality-18119, Renew Your Vows) Parkers confide with the others including Peter B. on family and how do they keep it together in light of their role as preserving fate and existence itself
• PS4/5 bros relate their experiences of loss and keeping going, especially to 1610B Miles. A great way of giving a layman on the games' plots while relaying their themes to the wider non-gamer audience
• Ben Reilly (Scarlet bro), being a Pete clone and a technical predecessor to Miles, will have his status put to address. His struggles with his inheritance and identity - bearing the names of Peter's parental figures - will probably mirror Ultimate Spider-Woman, and hopefully, he's a major outcrier against Miguel's misguided cause
• Jess-332's and Peter B's babies will interact, leading to the former's moral realization due to Peter B's time with Miles being the reason for his family's reconstruction - influenced solely by extrauniversal (of course anomalous) factors. Throw that Madame Web Spidey (Julia Carpenter) into the fray somehow?
• Interuniversal linkage like in the comics (616/928 and 65/8) can be explored to further the fate-changing theme; whether 928B the bad future of 616B is an inevitability - we haven't really explored 928B - and whether 42 is 1610B's worst possible self and how it can change. The Miles/Gwen dynamic could play here too, 65B and 1610B and the references to the number 8 (which happens to resemble the infinity sign - "infinite Spider possibilities") in Across. Not suggesting that Comics Earth 8's characters play any role, tho, 'cuz per the themes, the duo should connect on their terms
• Variant Miguels when, Sony - like the variant MJs, Harrys, Normans, Flashes, and Gwens, etc. Get freaking Edge of Time, not just Ultimate and 1994, in it
• The locked-up anomalous villains perhaps even helping stop Spot - like Kingpin and Ock above. Basically No Way Home's scenario but tweaked a bit and writ large; let them decide whether to have a new lease of life or to keep their exploits going - their outcomes, their terms as usual. I wonder how would Atari Osborn fare, though, XD

3. Fates

• George lives? Sorry, but Gwen's relationship with him remains strained, on top of her guilt from treachery and deception. Also, the canon event ain't really death, but the Captain losing their job

• Not Peter B., because he's a living meta rebuttal to people holding off (at the very least) on an aged-up/married/parent Peter, the 616 editorial included. Him dying, let alone Mayday (toddler, so definite write-off), would undermine this subtext
• Not Jess, 'cuz she's a mother and despite her jerkish mentor habits seems willing to look the other way for turncoats like Margo/Byte
• Not Jeff, 'cuz that would just prove Miggy's point in light of George being living proof, as well as utterly render worthless all the effort thrown into saving him
• Not Miguel (yes, how dare I), 'cuz for all his pain-motivated harshness, he deserves better than the cliche'd fatal redemption trope of villains, of which he technically ain't one (and don't "Thanos" this as unlike Migs, he knew of better options but foregone it)

• Miguel's right that being a Spider is a sacrifice, it's just their assigned canon events ain't 1:1 across every universe
• Miles' right that you can have and eat two cakes - meaning canon events can be alleviated (such as debris falling on Singh without killing him) - it's just that there's a cost

(Potential) Foreshadowing

• Proof for the 42 antiheroes' case:

... "We wanted to craft this moment where Miles encounters this powerful figure in his life that he loved so much and he lost," says director Justin K. Thompson. "That's when he realizes that he is not really in his own dimension, as well as the gravity of what he has lost. In this reality, Aaron had to shake off his life of crime and became a surrogate father figure to Miles."
... In this alternate reality, the Sinister Six have been able to flourish and take over the world. "Criminality runs rampant," says Thompson. "We wanted to create a world where it felt like Aaron and Miles G. Morales of Earth-42 [this reality's counterpart to Miles Morales] are the only heroes.
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Earth-42, p.190
... This version of the character was never bitten by a radioactive spider and doesn't have any superpowers, but he has fallen into the role of becoming the vigilante the Prowler, under the tutelage of his uncle Aaron. ...
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Miles G. Morales: The Prowler, p.200

• Here's a pattern: We meet multiple Spidey-Peters and our intro hero is, well, RIPeter, then some podcast revealed we'd be meeting multiple Gwens in Beyond; timestamp 17:51-18:45

Interviewer: Will we see other multiversal variants of Gwen Stacy in the future even if they don't have spider powers, like you do with MJ, Uncle Aaron, and Miles?
Lord: Currently yes. ... But there’s one I’m very excited about.
Miller: Yes, yeah, I know exactly the one you’re talking about.
Lord: You know the one I’m thinking of, which is based on... I’m not gonna say anything, I’m not gonna say anything.
Miller: But it is sort of plot-integral, I would say.
Interviewer: If there are other multiversal variants of Gwen in Beyond the Spider-Verse, will they impact her arc, her relationship with Miles?
Lord: I would say yes.

• Friendly reminder they referenced fuckin' Ultimate Fallout of all storylines in Gwen's room, under which she mostly lingers while speaking with her dad. Are you telling me that scene just happened to be shot like that? No, they orchestrated it! L&M! The story that deals with Miles' overall debut and the (of course, cue pathos) fallout of 1610A Spidey's demise! Been struggling to find and spot it honestly, damn lighting and coloring
• Guess what's 1610A Pete (the original Ultimate comics version, not blond RIPeter)'s death age? 16, exactly 65B Gwen's present age. MCU Pete's too when he was snapped
• Notice the last part of the Canon Event exposition scene; Hobie's got the Spider-Man No More comic panel, Jess-332 the If This Be My Destiny one, Peter B. the wedding, and Gwen? Spidey rising from the grave in Kraven's Last Hunt, modified with herself doing the feat. The kicker here: Neither Hobie nor Gwen's displayed events have official releases yet, although Hobie did say he opted out of chasing Miles - which is to say she's next and last, as well as #4 (so deathly the connotations) on the shown list

In Defense

• People keep saying there has to be a much more nuanced wrap-up - an idea with traction around these subs in a good way; to this day, people argue whether that Mumbattan hole was Spot BS or a canon event's unraveling. Mine has that nuance IMO
• Migs up and stated Mumbattan wasn't their first canon event ruptures rodeo and they couldn't save some 'verses from them, why would he be bullshitting or even fully wrong on CEs if he had that Spider team with specialized equipment for canon event containment? They were conveniently there right as that hole formed, and hell, they could reconcile that hole with the Dead Migs dimension where everything digitally evaporates as the latter being the end result
• He put on his shitlist Spider-Holland (maybe along with Maguire, Garfield (the light one)) for a reason - not hesitating to save MCU MJ (Michelle Jones-Watson) rather than let her be Spider-Tom's ASM-121 moment - although one can argue the memory wipe counts as first love loss, along with his Iron Man being his police captain canon event - and Raimi-verse Gwen is very much (per that meme) hot, single, and alive. Observing Sinister, Supreme, and 838/Illuminati-Strange's destroyed realities made him a rage button for 2099
• Showing the other 'verses like the comic-based What Ifs and that Armored Spider-Man one from the 1994 cartoon? It's kind of like a cheat out of the dilemma, and I'm not sure the other viewers would agree. Miguel also knows of Dr. Strange and possibly his What If? versions
  • Before someone "Absolute Points solve themselves, Society's unneeded" me, we know too the APs are a nascent concept and Miguel probably thought no two universes will always solve themselves and CEs are probably spontaneous - maybe a day, a week, or even a year plus, they will happen, scapegoat or not
  • To the people who say Migs was mistaken in how he destroyed that reality and that it was an Incursion: IT WASN'T ONE, because it would have caused a collision course between that 'verse and 928B, which I don't think they have any means to stop - only someone like Strange. Aside from the trolley sacrifice of one Earth, we're not privy to what are the other seven ways to averting Incursions. Guess what, Gabri's reality went poof on its apparent own while 928B stayed very much alive. Didn't even look like 928B was approaching from the skies at the time either
  • Returning to Miles' side, I also hear of the fixed time points comparison from Dr. Who; I'd like to point out the Doctor was able to fake his death by hiding inside a, uh, humanoid ship at Lake Silencio, so I've read, despite records saying so
• They keep insisting "First time for everything," right, plus the cake stuff? Why not a Venom Blast resuscitation somehow on the brink of death, then being comatose or some other critical injury so the "lost Lenore" event doesn't stick? Or! In the style of BvS Dawn of Justice and What if? Spider-Man The Other (plus Ultimate Gwen ofc)...symbiotic resurrection (possibly even transporting that one symbiote drop in that bar in the MCU), and cue Gwenom arc in some spinoff like Spider-Women
• Alternatively, to avoid the fridged LI trope absolutely, Rio gets the Ultimate comics treatment of death somehow - but as said repeatedly, doing one's own thing, and I think this Spider-War's seen enough dead Moraleses. Miles has already grown and seen enough from the other Spiders' losses and his own. Honestly, people need to hear comic quotes often, take Mark Waid's Daredevil run:

Rachel Cole: You know what gives me the strength? My loss. We're alike that way, I imagine. Admit it, nobody who's a stranger to that particular pain could ever be as driven as us.
Daredevil: Never... Don't you ever say that to me ever again, that is a repellent statement, it's a vomituous insult to every cop, every fireman, every soldier alive who steps up to fight for those who can't! I am sorry for your loss, but if you genuinely believe that only the death of a loved one can motivate a human being to take up a cause...then get your pathetic cynical ass out of my way so I can do my job!

Future Implications

Shortform

• Massive exploration of the Society beyond the big names we've spent time with in Across
• Villains forsaking their rivalries for survival and universes paving their own roads
• Gwen temporarily eating it but coming back, then leaning on her comic self (A variant)'s new Ghost-Spider ident to mark her defying fate's scythe

Premise

• Installment 1: Exposit - What is the subject
• Installment 2: Analyze - What is the subject's meaning
• Installment 3: Perspectivize - What is the subject's value and suasoria

• Expanded the 'verse and the major cast by throwing a curve into their relationships and own philosophies
• Delved deeper into what makes a Spider-Man by presenting a free will vs. determinism arc a la Civil War that also happens to have metacommentary

Events and Themes

1. Universes

• Miles Prowler can prove that the world doesn't always need Spider-Heroes to save itself, only the spirit of the concept - Spider-Man isn't the center of the multiverse, and given the last movie's title, it will navigate its own fate independent of any Spider at all - let the world do its own thing

• Maybe Kingpin and Dr. Octopus return someway, then emulate their TAS 1994 counterparts in allying with the Spiders out of existential pragmatics

2. Characters and Developments

• The RYV (Reality-18119, Renew Your Vows) Parkers confide with the others including Peter B. on family and how do they keep it together in light of their role as preserving fate and existence itself
• PS4/5 bros relate their experiences of loss and keeping going, especially to 1610B Miles. A great way of giving a layman on the games' plots while relaying their themes to the wider non-gamer audience
• Ben Reilly (Scarlet bro), being a Pete clone and a technical predecessor to Miles, will have his status put to address. His struggles with his inheritance and identity - bearing the names of Peter's parental figures - will probably mirror Ultimate Spider-Woman, and hopefully, he's a major outcrier against Miguel's misguided cause
• Jess-332's and Peter B's babies will interact, leading to the former's moral realization due to Peter B's time with Miles being the reason for his family's reconstruction - influenced solely by extrauniversal (of course anomalous) factors. Throw that Madame Web Spidey (Julia Carpenter) into the fray somehow?
• Interuniversal linkage like in the comics (616/928 and 65/8) can be explored to further the fate-changing theme; whether 928B the bad future of 616B is an inevitability - we haven't really explored 928B - and whether 42 is 1610B's worst possible self and how it can change. The Miles/Gwen dynamic could play here too, 65B and 1610B and the references to the number 8 (which happens to resemble the infinity sign - "infinite Spider possibilities") in Across. Not suggesting that Comics Earth 8's characters play any role, tho, 'cuz per the themes, the duo should connect on their terms
• Variant Miguels when, Sony - like the variant MJs, Harrys, Normans, Flashes, and Gwens, etc. Get freaking Edge of Time, not just Ultimate and 1994, in it
• The locked-up anomalous villains perhaps even helping stop Spot - like Kingpin and Ock above. Basically No Way Home's scenario but tweaked a bit and writ large; let them decide whether to have a new lease of life or to keep their exploits going - their outcomes, their terms as usual. I wonder how would Atari Osborn fare, though, XD

3. Fates

• George lives? Sorry, but Gwen's relationship with him remains strained, on top of her guilt from treachery and deception. Also, the canon event ain't really death, but the Captain losing their job

• Not Peter B., because he's a living meta rebuttal to people holding off (at the very least) on an aged-up/married/parent Peter, the 616 editorial included. Him dying, let alone Mayday (toddler, so definite write-off), would undermine this subtext
• Not Jess, 'cuz she's a mother and despite her jerkish mentor habits seems willing to look the other way for turncoats like Margo/Byte
• Not Jeff, 'cuz that would just prove Miggy's point in light of George being living proof, as well as utterly render worthless all the effort thrown into saving him
• Not Miguel (yes, how dare I), 'cuz for all his pain-motivated harshness, he deserves better than the cliche'd fatal redemption trope of villains, of which he technically ain't one (and don't "Thanos" this as unlike Migs, he knew of better options but foregone it)

• Miguel's right that being a Spider is a sacrifice, it's just their assigned canon events ain't 1:1 across every universe
• Miles' right that you can have and eat two cakes - meaning canon events can be alleviated (such as debris falling on Singh without killing him) - it's just that there's a cost

(Potential) Foreshadowing

• Proof for the 42 antiheroes' case:

... "We wanted to craft this moment where Miles encounters this powerful figure in his life that he loved so much and he lost," says director Justin K. Thompson. "That's when he realizes that he is not really in his own dimension, as well as the gravity of what he has lost. In this reality, Aaron had to shake off his life of crime and became a surrogate father figure to Miles."
... In this alternate reality, the Sinister Six have been able to flourish and take over the world. "Criminality runs rampant," says Thompson. "We wanted to create a world where it felt like Aaron and Miles G. Morales of Earth-42 [this reality's counterpart to Miles Morales] are the only heroes.
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Earth-42, p.190
... This version of the character was never bitten by a radioactive spider and doesn't have any superpowers, but he has fallen into the role of becoming the vigilante the Prowler, under the tutelage of his uncle Aaron. ...
Zahed, R. (2023). Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse: The Art of the Movie. Abrams Books. THE WORLDS → Miles G. Morales: The Prowler, p.200

• Here's a pattern: We meet multiple Spidey-Peters and our intro hero is, well, RIPeter, then some podcast revealed we'd be meeting multiple Gwens in Beyond; timestamp 17:51-18:45

Interviewer: Will we see other multiversal variants of Gwen Stacy in the future even if they don't have spider powers, like you do with MJ, Uncle Aaron, and Miles?
Lord: Currently yes. ... But there’s one I’m very excited about.
Miller: Yes, yeah, I know exactly the one you’re talking about.
Lord: You know the one I’m thinking of, which is based on... I’m not gonna say anything, I’m not gonna say anything.
Miller: But it is sort of plot-integral, I would say.
Interviewer: If there are other multiversal variants of Gwen in Beyond the Spider-Verse, will they impact her arc, her relationship with Miles?
Lord: I would say yes.

• Friendly reminder they referenced fuckin' Ultimate Fallout of all storylines in Gwen's room, under which she mostly lingers while speaking with her dad. Are you telling me that scene just happened to be shot like that? No, they orchestrated it! L&M! The story that deals with Miles' overall debut and the (of course, cue pathos) fallout of 1610A Spidey's demise! Been struggling to find and spot it honestly, damn lighting and coloring
• Guess what's 1610A Pete (the original Ultimate comics version, not blond RIPeter)'s death age? 16, exactly 65B Gwen's present age. MCU Pete's too when he was snapped
• Notice the last part of the Canon Event exposition scene; Hobie's got the Spider-Man No More comic panel, Jess-332 the If This Be My Destiny one, Peter B. the wedding, and Gwen? Spidey rising from the grave in Kraven's Last Hunt, modified with herself doing the feat. The kicker here: Neither Hobie nor Gwen's displayed events have official releases yet, although Hobie did say he opted out of chasing Miles - which is to say she's next and last, as well as #4 (so deathly the connotations) on the shown list

In Defense

• People keep saying there has to be a much more nuanced wrap-up - an idea with traction around these subs in a good way; to this day, people argue whether that Mumbattan hole was Spot BS or a canon event's unraveling. Mine has that nuance IMO
• Migs up and stated Mumbattan wasn't their first canon event ruptures rodeo and they couldn't save some 'verses from them, why would he be bullshitting or even fully wrong on CEs if he had that Spider team with specialized equipment for canon event containment? They were conveniently there right as that hole formed, and hell, they could reconcile that hole with the Dead Migs dimension where everything digitally evaporates as the latter being the end result
• He put on his shitlist Spider-Holland (maybe along with Maguire, Garfield (the light one)) for a reason - not hesitating to save MCU MJ (Michelle Jones-Watson) rather than let her be Spider-Tom's ASM-121 moment - although one can argue the memory wipe counts as first love loss, along with his Iron Man being his police captain canon event - and Raimi-verse Gwen is very much (per that meme) hot, single, and alive. Observing Sinister, Supreme, and 838/Illuminati-Strange's destroyed realities made him a rage button for 2099
• Showing the other 'verses like the comic-based What Ifs and that Armored Spider-Man one from the 1994 cartoon? It's kind of like a cheat out of the dilemma, and I'm not sure the other viewers would agree. Miguel also knows of Dr. Strange and possibly his What If? versions
  • Before someone "Absolute Points solve themselves, Society's unneeded" me, we know too the APs are a nascent concept and Miguel probably thought no two universes will always solve themselves and CEs are probably spontaneous - maybe a day, a week, or even a year plus, they will happen, scapegoat or not
  • To the people who say Migs was mistaken in how he destroyed that reality and that it was an Incursion: IT WASN'T ONE, because it would have caused a collision course between that 'verse and 928B, which I don't think they have any means to stop - only someone like Strange. Aside from the trolley sacrifice of one Earth, we're not privy to what are the other seven ways to averting Incursions. Guess what, Gabri's reality went poof on its apparent own while 928B stayed very much alive. Didn't even look like 928B was approaching from the skies at the time either
  • Returning to Miles' side, I also hear of the fixed time points comparison from Dr. Who; I'd like to point out the Doctor was able to fake his death by hiding inside a, uh, humanoid ship at Lake Silencio, so I've read, despite records saying so
• They keep insisting "First time for everything," right, plus the cake stuff? Why not a Venom Blast resuscitation somehow on the brink of death, then being comatose or some other critical injury so the "lost Lenore" event doesn't stick? Or! In the style of BvS Dawn of Justice and What if? Spider-Man The Other (plus Ultimate Gwen ofc)...symbiotic resurrection (possibly even transporting that one symbiote drop in that bar in the MCU), and cue Gwenom arc in some spinoff like Spider-Women
• Alternatively, to avoid the fridged LI trope absolutely, Rio gets the Ultimate comics treatment of death somehow - but as said repeatedly, doing one's own thing, and I think this Spider-War's seen enough dead Moraleses. Miles has already grown and seen enough from the other Spiders' losses and his own. Honestly, people need to hear comic quotes often, take Mark Waid's Daredevil run:

Rachel Cole: You know what gives me the strength? My loss. We're alike that way, I imagine. Admit it, nobody who's a stranger to that particular pain could ever be as driven as us.
Daredevil: Never... Don't you ever say that to me ever again, that is a repellent statement, it's a vomituous insult to every cop, every fireman, every soldier alive who steps up to fight for those who can't! I am sorry for your loss, but if you genuinely believe that only the death of a loved one can motivate a human being to take up a cause...then get your pathetic cynical ass out of my way so I can do my job!

Future Implications

• We are no longer allowing standalone "date this for me" posts. Instead, they should go in the same megathread as "price this for me" posts.
• We are clarifying our stance on "authenticate this for me" posts. "Authenticate this item" posts should go in the same weekly megathread. Note: This is not a luxury item authentication sub, so we will remove "authenticate this for me" posts that are not for vintage fashion items.
• We are creating a new "No Low Effort Posts" rule. We want this sub to be a resource to people seeking to learn more about vintage fashion, but there should be some minimum effort made to research your items before posting. If you post a photo and ask "anyone have more info?", without providing details about what you've already researched or what you're seeking to learn, we may remove your posts.
• We will continue to allow 90s and 00s clothing to count as vintage for now, even though that fully sends us into an existential crisis on a personal level. We're currently sticking to the definition of vintage as being clothing 20+ years old. Feedback from the sub was split 60/40 on this (in favor of allowing), so we will revisit if this deteriorates the quality of our sub.