Welcome back to another month of Talking Tuesday posts, this week landing straight on the very first day of the month. What a way to kick off November. Good thing
November is a famously quiet month for writing.
For this, the most writingest of writing months, we have a particularly great tutoring post for you, as we delve into the world of short story submissions to magazines/anthologies/websites etc.
To help us understand that world we have three writers from the community who have all been there and done that.
meowcats734 has been writing on the subreddit for a couple of years and was spotlit
back in August 2021. They are also the author of the great
Soulmage serial, but most relevantly have had nine magazine publications, including seven paid submissions. You can read more of
their stuff on their subreddit.
Jimiflan has been submitting pieces to magazines since 2020. He’s had six acceptances, three paid, from a mixture of short stories, microfics and poems. You can read more of his writing at
his personal subreddit . Lastly,
ecstaticandinsatiate has been around
writingprompts longer than I can remember, being spotlit back in 2018 and entering the
WritingPrompts hall of fame in 2019. She has had over twenty acceptances including places like Flash Fiction Online, PseudoPod and Vintage Books. Most recently,
she published Treat Me Like The Sea, a horror story, available for free at
The Arcanist. You can read more of her work at
shoringupfragments and
nickofstatic.
This is officially the longest Talking Tuesday we’ve done to date, so with intros out the way, let’s get on with the interview.
The beneath is a lightly edited transcript of a conversation that took place over Discord DMs.
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ArchipelagoMind: To start off.
What's a typical application process look like? What should I expect when I'm submitting?
meowcats734: hmm, for electronic submissions it's almost always just piece + cover letter (for both poetry and short stories, not that i've had any success publishing poetry)
jimiflan: Normally, you would find the submission portal with the formatting guidelines for the publication. It is usually pretty easy to fit into the right format. Save a copy of the word format with a filename that includes the publication (so you select the right file, trust me!). Sometimes it requires a cover letter which you can find guidelines on. Keep it short and sweet. Then hit submit, and then play the waiting game…
ArchipelagoMind: What do you generally put in the cover letter? Is it literally just a "hi, here is my piece." Or do you generally describe the story? Do you include your experiences/writing resume?
meowcats734: mm, I generally go with genre, word count, any information about me that's relevant to the piece (e.g. I write a lot of pieces about being trans, so knowing the author is trans is also important), and a couple previous publications if i had them at the time
jimiflan: yes, what meowcats said - lived experience will count for some publications.
This is where you look at their guidelines, they usually tell you what they want. Writing a resume may help, anything that may make you stand out from the crowd. If you are writing a story on astrophysics it might help if you mention you’re an astrophysics professor at X university... for example
then it is left to your own creativity
meowcats734: agree with jimiflan, with the caveat that plenty of publications have no info on what they expect in their cover letters
that doesn't mean you should panic, though; the general principles are pretty much the same between publications
jimiflan: and one bit of advice I gave someone recently, don't slag off the publishing industry in your cover letter
meowcats734: yikes, yeah, definitely don't do that
jimiflan: last bit on cover letters - keep it short and sweet.
ecstaticandinsatiate: Jimi is right about short and sweet cover letters. It's quite acceptable to only say "Hello, Thanks for considering my XXXX-word [genre], "Title". I appreciate your time and all the work you do! Sincerely, Someone's name"
jimiflan: copy and paste that cover letter static wrote and save it for later
ArchipelagoMind: Oh I will Jimi 🙂
So vanity publishing is always a scare in the novel world. I assume similar stuff happens in short story stuff?
Are there any red flags I should look out for in these places? Any signs that a publication is dodgy and I should stay clear?
jimiflan: I have the short answer; Rights, Reputation, Remuneration;
and the longer answer: Oh Dear, lots of opportunities for red flags. One I came across recently was that a publication was associated with scientology and I personally wouldn't want to be associated with that. Other reasons are due to rights. If the author doesn't retain rights after publication, usually a red flag. Some publications try to claim rights in perpetuity and in all formats. Red Flag. Also payments. Most professional magazines/publications will pay for the story. If they don't, then it might be a red flag. Sometimes they offer “authors copy” in lieu of payments. I have been paid a grand total of $16 for all the stories i have published so far. One other Red flag is really long read times. If they say they will get around to reading your story in 18 months' time, then that will be a bit of a red flag.
meowcats734: as a bit of a contrast, I'd say that the magazine
“Authors Publish” is a good place to look for places that pass those general sanity tests of rights and remuneration
ecstaticandinsatiate: Watch out for charging reading fees or magazines/publishers that simultaneously provide paid editing services. These are not inherent sins, but they can be signs of unethical behavior. A good way to tell if a press has some controversy or issues is to search its name plus a key phrase like "predators and editors" or "controversy" or simply search the name on Twitter. But often being listed with a reputable database like
Duotrope and
Submission Grinder is a strong (but not infallible) sign of legitimacy.
meowcats734: seconding ecstatic on reading fees
jimiflan: There can be a lot more red flags when it comes to novel publishers. I've seen some horror stories in that space. Reputation really matters there
ecstaticandinsatiate: 100% Jimi with novel publishers. On that note, age of the press or mag matters immensely as well as who they list in their masthead. I've seen people self-publish only their friends and try to call it a publishing company
ArchipelagoMind: Are there any particular tricks and tips you would suggest that help?
Are there any unwritten rules to getting stuff published beyond "follow the guidelines, submit a good story, make sure it's relevant"?
jimiflan: I think the best advice I keep seeing (from the publishers themselves) is to read the publication and see what they publish
meowcats734: there's also often very little downside to submitting widely, so don't self-reject
jimiflan: oh yeah meowcats, the best way to not get published, is not submit
ArchipelagoMind: There's no secret rule then that if you sign your cover letter in cursive you get accepted, or like, you have to always ensure you use single quotes for speech marks or some other secret rule...?
meowcats734: the equivalent to this would be "follow the formatting guidelines to the letter"
if they ask for 12 pt times new roman, double spaced, you'd better give them 12 pt times new roman, double spaced
ecstaticandinsatiate: Meowcats is absolutely right that one of the biggest secrets is to send anywhere and everywhere that sort of fits if you squint at it funny. The editor's job is to tell you if it's a good fit. Follow the submission guidelines, and no editor worth working with will ever judge you or think poorly of you.
jimiflan: I don't think it’s a secret, but write good stories that people will want to read.
ecstaticandinsatiate: Hahaha I agree with Jimi. There is a strong element of figuring out what you want to write and who you want to read it. Submitting invites the reader into the room. If you're serious about submitting, be serious about seeking feedback and endeavoring to actively improve aspects of your writing you consistently get feedback needs to be improved (e.g. my focus at the moment is improving thematic connection across the whole short story--we are all constantly improving)
ArchipelagoMind: So you reckon you're better off submitting by breadth rather than micro targeting kind of approach?
jimiflan: Be careful about simultaneous submissions though, some publications allow that and some don't. You can send the same story to all the publications that allow simultaneous submissions, and then just notify them if it gets accepted somewhere
and for the publications that don't allow it, send them a different story
meowcats734: maybe in another era, micro targeting would work better, but nowadays, just by sheer volume of submissions it's unlikely that an individual publication will choose any specific story; it could be that your story was great, but some other story fit the magazine's thematic needs as a whole slightly better
ecstaticandinsatiate: I think that question sort of depends on your particular submission style, Arch. I simultaneously submit (simsub, sending the same story to more than one market) religiously. Every story I have is out to 5 places at a time, starting with highest paying to lowest paying.
I'm in the camp of ignoring no sim sub rules personally. Some mags will ask for reading exclusivity, which means no simultaneous submissions to other magazines. Unless you're literally Clarkesworld or the Dark, my position is, politely, ‘lol fuck no I'm not waiting’. Sim subbing to no sim sub markets carries risk if you get an awkward double acceptance, so only play this card on markets you're okay with a .001% chance of offending.
jimiflan: Where do you guys stand on "published anywhere on the internet means you can't publish it in a magazine" - losing the exclusivity?
ecstaticandinsatiate: Jimi, I usually err on the side of whether or not it can be found in a Google index. I think it's a fair line to draw. I do recommend searching for magazines that allow reprints! A podcast is publishing one of my old WP stories
(This is also why we hissboo WP audio narration thieves. You are literally stealing a story right someone can sell. Stop it!!)
meowcats734: if I've published a story online (e.g. on
writingprompts) it's usually because it's a first draft. by the time I reach draft four or five it's completely unrecognizable anyway, and might as well be a different story.
jimiflan: Yeah, I think it is a lesson that everyone learns the hard way, I have some stories I put on reddit i would have liked to submit around, but cant now
ecstaticandinsatiate: Meow brings up an excellent point! I've definitely edited a story enough so that it only used maybe 200 words of the original post. I removed the post and have had zero issues
getting it rejected over and over lolol I haven't sold it yet meowcats734: it's definitely subjective! but it's worked for me so far.
jimiflan: the only problem is if the editor can recognise it, even the title
ecstaticandinsatiate: 100% Jimi, make peace very early on that you can only submit WP pieces to places that accept reprints or edit it to an almost totally different story
jimiflan: or write a totally different story
ArchipelagoMind: So I think this leads nicely onto the sort of psychology of submitting to places. And I know this is one of the biggest barriers out there (
looks at myself too). Because when I asked people about questions for this week, the one I got multiple of was a pretty straightforward
"how do you know when you're ready to submit?" How do you know that your writing is of a quality that it's worth sending out?
jimiflan: For me it was by reading other stories and thinking, some of my stories are better than that (they weren't, but it's the confidence I needed). Also having good friends who beta read for you and tell you it's good. By the way, all writing is good enough to successfully submit, but not necessarily get accepted for publication. Those two things are different.
There is one short story that I read from Liars League years ago that i still strive to try and replicate the satisfaction i got in the ending (still working on that)
ecstaticandinsatiate: However, do what makes the most sense for your personal submitting journey. I started submitting one or two stories at a time and waiting anxiously. I usually have 30+ submissions going at a time now and forget I submitted something until I get a response. Some semi-pro, published writers I know hate my current method and live by one market at a time. Try things out. See what level of submitting works best for your personal goals right now.
meowcats734: frankly, submitting is free and very easy thanks to the internet; if you don't know if you're ready to submit, why not try it out and see if you get any bites? that's how I started out, after all.
ArchipelagoMind: The "screw it, do it anyway" approach meowcats?
jimiflan: it's the
NIKE approach really
meowcats734: exactly! worst-case scenario, you spend, what, five minutes of your life on something you're passionate about?there are worse fates than that.
jimiflan: im betting it takes static more than 5 min to send out 30+ submissions.
meowcats734: fair fair. I meant for one individual submission.
ecstaticandinsatiate: Hahaha Jimi I wish it was 5 minutes per LOL. If I was smart I'd save a template but I always just copy-paste from my last sent email anyway 😭😂
jimiflan: got to be so careful when you do that and change the name "Dear Mr So and So"
ecstaticandinsatiate: Jimi, I stopped personalizing because I always messed it up when I did ahahah
jimiflan: It is actually quite satisfying when you hit submit
meowcats734: agreed!
I seem to be the opposite of static in terms of submissions; I catalogue everything in a spreadsheet and if a press says no simultaneous submissions, I never go against that rule
I don't think there's any particular merit to doing things one way or the other; it's just how I choose to do things, especially since there are so many magazines that are completely fine with simultaneous submissions
ecstaticandinsatiate: Yesss and it's totally valid, Meowcats! I have found the best system is the one that fuels you to keep writing and submitting. If my system brought crippling anxiety to someone, it wouldn't be productive or useful :3
I really like that perspective both of you take on, Jimi and Meow. There is sort of a fallacy that one day, you'll hit a level of Good Enough where you unlock Level 50 of being a writer and the editors start sending you acceptances. The reality is a gradual development. A little bit forward, a little bit back, and even when it feels like you aren't moving, you are.
I will tell you the one clear sign you're not ready to submit: you still take critique and rejection personally. Don't feel bad. No one loses this 100% unless you stop writing vulnerable, difficult things. But if you're not in a place to hear ambivalent or negative feedback about your work from a stranger, wait. Be kind to yourself. Fill your own cup. Don't submit if your ego isn't steeled against the possibility for those constant small wounds
ArchipelagoMind: So, on the topic of rejection. Meowcats, I think you said you were at like... nine acceptances to 117 rejections? So we know it's a massive numbers game. Is there anything you do to deal with the fact that 90% of all this ends in rejection, or just try and ignore it and move on.
jimiflan: Celebrate rejections! Really, it is worth celebrating all rejections because each is one step closer to acceptance. Remember that rejection of the story is not a rejection of you the author.
ecstaticandinsatiate: I agree with Jimi! Aim for rejections! I celebrated passing 100 rejections this year this past August. Unlike aiming for acceptances, you can actually control rejections (to some degree lol)
10% is considered a stellar acceptance rate. If that sort of thing rattles you, it should just make you appreciate how tough writers are ;) And how tough you have the capacity to be someday!
meowcats734: re: numbers game—this approach isn't for everyone, but a while back I picked up the approach of "whenever I get a rejection, I send out two more submissions." it sort of reframed every rejection from "oh no, this person didn't like my work" to "ha, another opportunity to get my work out there."
note: the reason why this doesn't end in 2
30 submissions per day is that eventually, an acceptance comes, and that halts all further duplication of submissions.
ecstaticandinsatiate: I agree completely, Meow!!
ArchipelagoMind: So what does rejection normally look like in the short story world. Do you just never here from them? Do you just get a generic letter? Or do you get actual feedback/reasoning? What's the normal experience?
jimiflan: It depends, majority of rejections come as a standard form email. Sometimes it is personalised, with comments like they really liked the story but it wasn't the right fit for them. In my experience the only time I've been ghosted is with Novel queries. When you send those out, it is often the case that you just don't get a response.
meowcats734: agree with jimiflan, but i'll note that for poetry submissions, for some reason it's much more common to just get ghosted.
if you do get feedback or reasoning, it's a
very good sign. jimiflan: Poets are so... I don't know...
get used to standard rejection emails...
ArchipelagoMind: Huh, so what I'm hearing is the short story publishing world is less depressing than my job searching for the past four years has been. Well that's oddly encouraging…
meowcats734: I would say that you shouldn't go into short story publishing expecting to make a living, but then again, I'm not sure if you should go into a modern job market expecting to make a living, either.
ecstaticandinsatiate: Most places will tell you in their submission guidelines if they play a "no response means no" game. I find this tactic highly disrespectful to writers and I've only submitted to one place that does it because the devil won me over with beautiful print editions.
Most commonly, you'll get a form rejection letter that says something like, "While we enjoyed reading your story, it doesn't fit our needs at this time." Those aren't too bad, honestly! Personals are great and rare (for me they represent maybe 10% of total rejections) and show an editor wanted to invest a little extra time to help you improve. They can still I inadvertently sting; I had a friend receive a personal from a huge pro-rate mag that simply said their story didn't do anything new or unexpected with the concept. Like brutal dude hahaha. Those are rare, and overwhelmingly it's just a polite form. It's fun to submit with friends gossip over emails when you need a little spite soothing :3
ArchipelagoMind: Spite soothing is a treasured pasttime
ecstaticandinsatiate: :3 hehe we have so much in common
Let's just say you'd make more streaming writing short stories than writing and selling short stories LOL. But if you have interest in joining the contemporary lit community, have dreams of a novel query letter you want to pad out a little, or just enjoy the art and competition -- it's a worthy not-job :3
ArchipelagoMind: Rejection feels like an odd place to take a break. But we’re about at the halfway mark space wise, so let’s stop there. And then next week we can more into the world of magazine and publication submissions.
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Thanks to all three of our writers for their insights. We'll be back with part two next week. In the meantime, join in below.
Have you ever submitted anywhere? If so, how did it go? If you haven't, is it something your aiming to do in the future? We'll be back next week with part two of our Talking Tuesday Tutoring piece on shortform publishing.
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⸮tpircstsoP A
- These Talking Tuesdays posts are awesome aren't they? Good news, you can read them all at our wiki.
- A while back I offered a limerick written by Badderlocks_ - the other mod behind this feature - for anyone who knew who joined our Discord. No one claimed it. Then I offered a full sonnet. Still no takers. Then it was a portrait in MS Paint. Still, they did not claim it. I even asked the public, they said an MS Paint drawing of a Pokemon would work. Still none. So for my fifth and final attempt, you now also get an acrostic based off your username. All you got to do is join the Discord, and claim your reward. So... Join our Discord. (Also, we have a Secret Santa story project on our Discord, come join to check it out).
- Nominate a writer for a spotlight on WritingPrompts.
- Want to help keep the good ship DLB WritingPrompts running? Apply to be a mod.
No seriously! Websites like TeachersPayTeachers (TPT) have low cost (sometimes even free, but it's nice to donate something if possible) templates for cards and other paper gifts. All you need to do is print it out. No printer? Use the public library's! Then get yourself a pack of cheap coloured pencils or other colouring materials from the dollar store (if you don't already have them, pick up their fave snack or drink while you're at it to go with it). Coloured pencils, even the cheap ones, can create a variety of blending effects, and YouTube is free to learn simple techniques. I know these activities are for children, but people tend to appreciate the thought, time, and effort put into it. There's different activities for people who are more artistic or others who are better at writing. Either way, there'll be something for everyone and for just about any holiday!
Disclaimer: if a person is expecting something different, I don't recommend this. But for a small holiday where they might not be expecting any gift, this works great!
Source: I work in a 3rd grade classroom, did the Mother's Day activities with the class, and just gave my mum a very cute pot of paper flowers that she loved. It also included an acrostic poem and lots of little doodles.
Happy poetry month! As I began research for my second grade poetry unit I noticed ALL of the resources for template poetry. The internet is filled with TPT templates for acrostic poems, diamond poems, bio poems etc. I'm just not a fan! I love teaching my students poetry through rich mentor texts and free verse. At the end of the unit we invite families in for a poetry slam event. I'd love to know how you teach poetry!
Wound up typing this up for a /tg/ a while back, stumbled onto the .txt I'd saved it in, figured what the hell, lets see how many tabletoppers actually use Reddit! We begin this collection of assuredly batshit stories with a personal favorite, from a little cozy DnD campaign a while back....
Innis was the guy's name. 16 year old Gnome/Halfling Rogue/Sorcerer. Looked at first glance like a ten year old human kid. Bright eyed, blonde haired, the grinning kid you cant help but like. Sort of Doogie Howser vibe. (High CHA is not just for spell bonuses, people!) The campaign was set up around all the PC's being the random "lucky" people who came acrost a set of very wierd, connected, dangerous as hell artifacts. We all took one look at each other and went "Better than you all meet in a bar!"
So I wind up with this kid, just old enough to be something resembling an adventurer. Grew up lower middle class, son of jewler's shop worker. Fretting homebody Mom, Dad works long hours, but its a highly developed mage-ocracy city they live in, with supposedly high end economy and infrastructure. So a craftworker's son.... isnt that rich. Its the spellcasters that dominate the economy. And Mom never let him forget it, fretting over tight money.
So the fact that on his first run out of would-be cat burgalury, he expresses Sorcery abilities, sort of adjusts his dangerously downwind spiraling career opportunities. He becomes a sort of Robin Hood figure to the megalopolis. Small time, not well known, really only just starting to build a reputation. But a few cantrips, one level of rogue and two of sorc, and you can do an incredible amount of work.
After that, the DM says that the custom artifact everyone is getting is something we can have input on. I say so something like a hookshot, then? If I'm going to minmax the batman sorc/rogue template to hell and back, may as well take it to the nines. Spent some starting cash on a creepy mask and dramatic but decently made late night thief's outfit. Reasonable colours, nothing reflective, but creepy-for-the-hell-of-it-detailing.
And the DM says I get an item called The Maw. During the prelude adventure, I was hitting a price-gouging academy backed pawn shop that bought up items of any magical value, just to keep the 'good' stuff out of the public hands. Just the sort of culture-war business that keeps Innis laughing. Lo and behold, a wild artifact appears ina crate of semi-precious arcane goods being sent from a pawnshop off to auction. It looks like a single arm's worth of armor, semi-shiny black carapace materiel, slightly irridescent violet fabric in the jointing and filligre. Sort of drow looking, elegantly artsy light plate. Only, the hand ends in a near literal maw, these three downswinging hook hands. And that whole bit launches off ala a giant robot punch.
I had a once per day hookshot. My inner blink tank is going squee. That, some jump, some tumble, I could do terrible, terrible things with this gizmo. Poor GM thought she had just handed me a simple piece of bladed armor with a neat once per day.
I'm even more amused to discover that the GM has decided we all meet... In an /arena/. Since its a mageocracy, exhibition combat is aparently a thing. Nice, safe rezzing and healing spells in play, your body sort of disperses in an aesthetically pleasing pixie dust burst and shows up on a med bed.
So okay nice safe deathmatch first game. All the other players had equally insane items, and it was clear that most of the competitors were functionally fifth level dudes of one stripe or another. So our chars being third, with great artifacts, works out, was the theory.
Anyways. GM is running an old 'villain' from an evil campaign, this snoot, nose in the air, ponciest-ponce who ever ponced elf named "Topaz" . And he's all about Summon Celestial Random Small Animal spells. Shiny. Sparkly. Holy. Widdle fuzzy animals.
This bozo was the beloved, grinning champion of the arena, of course. It was sacchrine. I wanted his head.
So I lolstealth through the whole arena, avoiding combat, watching a bear druid and plate pally smack each other around to little effect, untill McPonce and me are in close range. He's just come off a skirmish with another PC, managed to down that one through a couple of really bafflingly bad tactical choices on the wizard's side. So he doesnt notice that I've just sneak attacked the nearest minion. (He had like three of them up at that one time, one was still around the corner.Mazelike arena, natch. )
So by the time he gets there, and can see whats going on, all he has is the slowly dissolving corpse of a summoned celestial badger. And then I spent my first spell. Ghost Sound.
Scraping the pleasantly sharp edge of the Maw's signature teeth along the wall, and with the sing-song cherubic voice, little Innis started chanting "You caaaaant escaaaaaape~".
Beat him on the morale attack check by ten. Fucker's a bit shaken. Stalking him through the maze isnt that difficult, but keeping him moving, and trying to circle around to get a backstab on him, or the wasp, or the wolf, wasnt working. Had a couple rounds of dicking about back and forth with pillar dancing, said fuck it, jumped out, and fired the hookshot square at his chest. Head to head if you cant sneak it!
I roll a 20 on the to hit. Make the crit check. And functionally do a whole round's attack on just activating the item for a free. And now I'm flying towards him. My prepared action for move? To plant my feet downwards, of course. Fail that one rather spectacularly, actually, and just wind up shoulder checking him, we go rolling.
Because he's a fucking /elf/, and my near adult gnomeling does climbing and jumping, I actually win the grapple check. Beating him by enough to reverse the grapple, no less. Ridiculously elaborate three point five grapple rules, I love you!
So the next round I go to disengage. Between the initial hit and the grapple round with my hookshot tucked into his torso, it was kind of a bitch to get off him. Turns out the armor's cursed, cant be wriggled out of to disengage, and "The Maw" isnt interested in letting go. Solution? Wedge foot into gut, twist, yank! Gimme a strength check, GM says.
All natural 20. Again.
So when you crit on that, and the guy has more fingers than hitpoints left, aparently you trigger a cinematic kill. The ribcage comes free. Showering me, and a good deal of the crowd in sparkling, dissolving elf torso.
So I accidentally oneshot and dismembered an arena champion after spending five minutes taunting him with a loudspeaker.
Innis has a hard time doing the cat burglar thing nowadays.